I really enjoyed the conversation floating around and near to the book and it’s literal text, but also it’s distance from it. This felt fun and different and interesting. Keep trying new things!
Emily, I really appreciate these kind words. Sometimes I'm self-conscious that in interviews I'm just sharing what someone's work prompted for me, and I only get to a question in some very roundabout way. But I do view the interviews as conversations, so I'm glad my meandering is a worthwhile part of it for you. And feel free to tell me if it ever isn't!
What prompts you makes it more interesting than an interviewer who wasn’t touched.
My favorite interviewers have been Krista Tippett and Ezra Klein, because they are also engaged and thus turn the interview into a place for something new.
I was thinking today I like your format even more.
Hey David, I think the Q&A built around images is a good idea that works well, it's interesting to hear the different meanings that images have and hold for different people. It can help us to see things in a whole new light or from an angle we hadn't considered. Your reference to Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's quote made me think about an idea I have that when people settle down (get married or whatever) it's a huge unknown taken away from them and allows them greater freedom to really put their energy into doing whatever it is they want to do. I realise that this doesn't take account of the energy and efforts involved in maintaining good relationships etc. but I think it may free up more mental space without the constant unknown of what may lie ahead for a person still unsure what direction life is headed. I have Ryan's book 'The Obstacle Is the Way' but not the one you reference here, I'll have to move this one up my list before I pick up 'Discipline Is Destiny'! Ps I recently finished 'Good To Go' by Christie Aschwanden based on your recommendation and I absolutely loved it, it's pretty much everything I want in a book, interesting topic, rigorously researched and great personality that comes across throughout! Also nearly finished 'Deep Work' which I picked up after your Q&A with Cal Newport and really enjoying that too so thanks for the great recommendations! 🙌
Hey William, I completely agree with your assessment of the Mihaly quote. And I definitely agree that it takes energy and effort to maintain good relationships, and I definitely think there's a risk of forgetting that! The quote resonated with me about diving into projects in general. I came across it at a time where I had fallen into a rut of not choosing a project to dive in on because I kept wondering what else might be around the corner. It was actually because of that, not marriage, that the quote resonated with me. I find book writing to be so much work (not the writing so much as trying to get interviews, travel logistics, and organizing information especially) that I've become increasingly reticent to start. So I found myself with a number of interests, but still looking around the corner for a "perfect" topic. Of course, there is no perfect topic, I needed to dive in and start learning, rather than only wondering what else might be better to learn.
Otherwise, I'm so glad to hear that about Christie's book! I love her work. I know some people criticized it for saying that so much stuff doesn't work. My feeling is I want to know what we know, and if it's that most of the remedies out there aren't worth a lot, I'm glad to know that! So — beyond just enjoying the stories and the approach to science writing — I didn't find the takeaway depressing, but rather that there are basics that work, and certain habits of mind are useful. I'd rather that than spending money on supplements that don't work. In any case, so glad to hear that you're enjoying some of the books I recommend!
Hey David, that's really interesting to hear that you felt that way about taking on new projects, but also understandable in that a book project is a huge undertaking so it's important to find a good topic that fits. I can't even imagine how much work is involved! I remember reading you saying in an interview that your wife said "you went upstairs and didn't come down for a year" or something like that ha. I wonder do you have a big team to help with some of the logistics/interviews etc.? Also I remember reading that you paid a friend to review some research (for statistical rigour I think) and thought that was really cool! Well I'm glad you have decided on a subject matter to do a deep dive and I'm sure there will be no stopping you now! I agree completely about Christie's book! I'm sure she'd have liked nothing more than to discover that a lot of recovery tools were wonderful (like in her fun beer experiment!) but I also much prefer to know what doesn't work and not waste money and time on fads or whatever. Also it reinforced to me how important sleep is and I recently picked up Matthew Walker's book so I'm looking forward to that. Anyway, I hope the early stages of the new book project are going well and I'm looking forward to hearing more about that when the time is right. Thanks David.
Haha..."You went upstairs and came back down two years later." Not true! I also travelled a lot;) That was for my first book, which was more travel intensive than the second. I have no team at all for logistics. When I get invited to speak at an event, I do have a logistics coordinator for that, but in terms of my book stuff, I'm a one-guy operation for the logistics. Regarding the statistical piece, I did do that, and I've also paid for various other types of vetting or fact-checking (mistakes still get through, it just lessens the number and severity). With my first book, I paid two physiologists a token fee to just read the full manuscript for errors. It was great, but a pretty basic error still got through! It happens... and has since been corrected. (And nobody but a serious physiology student would have noticed, but that made it a little more surprising that the physiologists didn't catch it.) I guess I'm not a very good delegator. I even feel I need to transcribe some of my more in depth interviews myself, which is almost certainly not entirely true, but it's the system I have. I will say, compared to previous book projects, with the current one, instead of disappearing for two years, I'm talking about ideas to my editor a lot more along the way, both for her thoughts but also because that talking helps me clarify my own thinking. That's very useful, but for the core stuff, I'm a one-person team;)
It's really cool to hear about some of your process when it comes to book writing! I can understand the lack of delegation, it will ultimately be your name on the cover so I get that you want to have control to a large degree. I also remember you saying that a course in fiction writing helped clarify a lot of things for you when writing Range, I believe a big takeaway was going through various literature again to more fully understand it instead of using quotes. Also, I volunteer to read through any manuscripts/part of manuscripts for the new book for possible typos etc. absolutely free of charge! I actually have a good eye for grammar, spelling, punctuation typos etc. Maybe I could be the pre proofreading step! Ha.. anyway good to hear that this talking through errors is helping you clarify your thinking, sounds like a good filtering system through the process.
Great Q&A, David! I've been a fan of Ryan Holiday's for a few years. He packs so much wisdom into what he says that his writing feels very quotable, so it was really neat to see you two team up. The Gehrig quote is one I'll carry with me for a while. It has me thinking about what it means to me to be a teacher...
I'm curious: to the extent that you are comfortable sharing, what are some examples of lower-value activities you would do instead of the research/writing required for a longer book project? You may have heard this before, but it reminded me of Warren Buffet's Avoid-At-All-Cost List: https://jamesclear.com/buffett-focus
Cool! I read some of James's stuff, but had not heard of the Avoid-At-All-Cost List. That's a great idea.
In terms of my lower-value activities, here are a few that come right to mind: responding to all of my email. With help, I was able to divide my email into lists by priority. I've realized, though, that I can actually never answer most of it, and so the lists that aren't the first list basically shouldn't even exist. Lots of requests, for everything from help with homework to book blurbs to podcasts... Most of the requests for book blurbs I get are from people I like and whose work I like, and I'd probably like their books, but one can only read so many books. Same for podcasts, I'd probably really enjoy going on most of those podcasts, and some of them would be professionally useful, but I was doing way too many of them when I had help scheduling. There was a whole miscellany of things I'd get invited to, each one seeming like a cool one-off, and I started going to more of them when I had help with logistics. And it was almost always fun and/or stimulating! But I've realized I just need to be a lot more discerning with what can get done. Just in general I was responding to tons of requests to do things, and do favors. And I like doing certain kinds of favors, but I think I had to heed the Adam Grant advice to sort of pick buckets of the types of favors you can do and are good at, so that you have some boundaries. I was even doing more stuff around my house, which is nice, but not essential. Actually, I was responding to more messages on every platform I have. Take LinkedIn...I had a huge backlog of messages, many of them interesting, and from interesting people, and sharing interesting things or asking interesting questions or offering interesting opportunities, and once I started to answer some (again, in lists), I was like, "Oh, lots of good stuff here, I need to keep up with this." But I can't. I just can't worry about missing the good thing here and there, which will happen, because I need to focus on the stuff that I'm positive is higher value. I got into a few side projects too, like acting as a sort of advisor for a documentary. I could go on about this, but the capacity to do more stuff in general definitely did not lead me to do more of the high-value stuff. So now I don't have that help anymore, and it really forces me to do some Burkeman-style prioritization.
David, excellent. Probably my 2nd or 3rd reading. But you know, I get a bit put-out by you writers, who lament the busyness of life, the travel that took me away from craft, etc. And the reflection imposed by the pandemic. You know, most of us live that life. We are in the arena. That is how we have impact or meaning in our meager lives. We work for people we shouldn’t and for the salary we need. Perhaps jealousy. But also in appreciation of the reflection. Thanks.
I subscribed to your newsletter fairly recently and just read this relatively “old” post today. Thank you. I’m fascinated by self-discipline, and I agree that “Discipline is Destiny.” While I also agree that boundaries, such as routines and crafted environments, can promote productivity, I have discovered something else, and I feel compelled to share it. Somewhere along the line, unintentionally but quite fortunately, I developed the ability to drop immediately into a state of productivity in almost any setting. I remember writing my dissertation on a laptop partially while I was sitting at a picnic table on campus. Today, I can work on anything—even a book project—just about anywhere at any time of day. Sometimes I compose while I’m walking or swimming and dictate (between laps, for example) into my phone. I don’t meant to boast, but merely to say that this ability, which perhaps came with a lot of experience and practice, increases my productivity dramatically because I don’t have to depend on having the right setting or a certain amount of time. I would PREFER to have a few hours to write, and I know sometimes it’s hard to stop, but I can make use of much shorter stretches and write when the spirit moves me or simply when I have the gift of a few minutes of time.
I've been thinking a lot about useful constraints, as it's a central topic of a book I'm working on. Thank you for reading, and "I learned something" is the best compliment!
Thanks David! While I am late to the piece, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this piece. As much as discipline is important, I would suggest that avoiding distractions from 'near and dear' makes a huge difference. This piece certainly inspires me to work back on my writing again.
Hey David, thanks much for this refreshing post! I picked up this book at a store on Aug 20th (without having read any of Ryan's books before). Must say, your post was 'timely' in my case. :)
Loved the use of art in the art of questioning; super creative & thought-provoking piece!
It's fascinating to see all this 'faith-based' or 'faith-inspired' practice revival across many parts of life.. Maybe we're realizing that Religions in general aren't so bad as we have advocated and propagated for over 2 centuries now in many parts of the human civilization.. It's also fascinating how people are engaging with these practices or modifying them to 'fit into' the modern life, rather than comply to the ancient practices themselves.. fascinating stuff all around..
This is a great and thoughtful comment. And I think, while religions are not viewed the way they once were by many people, there are still so many practitioners of various degrees, that I'd hesitate to say that the jury has come in and they've been deemed bad. I actually just saw in a bookstore yesterday a book titled "Religion in Human Evolution" by Bellah. I'm not entirely sure what it's about, but you've made me curious and now I think I'll probably buy it next time I'm there.
Stephen T. Asma, the writer and philosopher, has an interesting book called "Why we need religion" where he argues for the importance of religion from a sociological/psychological point of view. Fantastic piece on the subject! I'm also a big proponent of great book covers, case at hand: https://www.forewordreviews.com/books/covers/why-we-need-religion.w300.jpg
A great post, but I am confused by the conflation of sparta with freedom. The spartan culture was one of the most horrific cultures of slavery recorded. They kept an entire neighboring civilization in absolute bondage, including ritually going to ”war” with the slaves yearly. During this war the enslaved were unarmored and unarmed while young soldiers killed them.
There were 7 enslaved Helots per spartan.
How any of this relates to any concept of freedom that one might respect is hard to fathom. Except perhaps despotic freedom.
It is funny how they do not teach this in our western civ middle school classes. We hear about their martial prowess, but not their sociopathic culture. I still remember asking a teacher “If they spend their lives training for battle, who grows their food?” I don’t remember the exact response, but it sure as heck wasn’t the real story.
Fair points, Matt! And I certainly would've preferred to be an Athenian. (Not that they didn't have plenty of cruel aspects — including slavery.) The concept behind that quote Ryan featured, to me, is the general idea that discipline and structure can create a kind of freedom for individuals. When I read it, I thought back to when I was a college athlete, and how completely easy the clear structure of training made it for me to work hard, even though the training itself was rigorous. That said, your point is well taken, and in the future I'll try to think more about adding some note so that it doesn't feel like the context is completely ignored. I was thinking of adding in that same part of the post some words from William James about the importance of structure for allowing you to basically automate many of the small decisions of your day. It's really insightful, but he was very much unable to live his own advice. ....Contradictions abound. In any case, I appreciate you bringing this up, and it's a good reminder for me to think about adding notes of context.
Totally agree with the overall point. It may just be time to leave the Spartans behind! If discipline requires the subjugation of others (as it did for Sparta) than it is not laudable.
I really enjoyed the conversation floating around and near to the book and it’s literal text, but also it’s distance from it. This felt fun and different and interesting. Keep trying new things!
I appreciate the encouragement to experiment, Bobby! And I like that description of "floating around and near to the book," but with distance.
What I like about your interviews, David, is that both sides are worth reading and have something to say.
In many interviews the question is weak, or repeats any other interview, or is antagonistic.
Yours are more of a conversation. I enjoy them.
Emily, I really appreciate these kind words. Sometimes I'm self-conscious that in interviews I'm just sharing what someone's work prompted for me, and I only get to a question in some very roundabout way. But I do view the interviews as conversations, so I'm glad my meandering is a worthwhile part of it for you. And feel free to tell me if it ever isn't!
What prompts you makes it more interesting than an interviewer who wasn’t touched.
My favorite interviewers have been Krista Tippett and Ezra Klein, because they are also engaged and thus turn the interview into a place for something new.
I was thinking today I like your format even more.
This is such a lovely thought, and great encouragement for me, even though I know my style can sometimes be digressive.
Hey David, I think the Q&A built around images is a good idea that works well, it's interesting to hear the different meanings that images have and hold for different people. It can help us to see things in a whole new light or from an angle we hadn't considered. Your reference to Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's quote made me think about an idea I have that when people settle down (get married or whatever) it's a huge unknown taken away from them and allows them greater freedom to really put their energy into doing whatever it is they want to do. I realise that this doesn't take account of the energy and efforts involved in maintaining good relationships etc. but I think it may free up more mental space without the constant unknown of what may lie ahead for a person still unsure what direction life is headed. I have Ryan's book 'The Obstacle Is the Way' but not the one you reference here, I'll have to move this one up my list before I pick up 'Discipline Is Destiny'! Ps I recently finished 'Good To Go' by Christie Aschwanden based on your recommendation and I absolutely loved it, it's pretty much everything I want in a book, interesting topic, rigorously researched and great personality that comes across throughout! Also nearly finished 'Deep Work' which I picked up after your Q&A with Cal Newport and really enjoying that too so thanks for the great recommendations! 🙌
Hey William, I completely agree with your assessment of the Mihaly quote. And I definitely agree that it takes energy and effort to maintain good relationships, and I definitely think there's a risk of forgetting that! The quote resonated with me about diving into projects in general. I came across it at a time where I had fallen into a rut of not choosing a project to dive in on because I kept wondering what else might be around the corner. It was actually because of that, not marriage, that the quote resonated with me. I find book writing to be so much work (not the writing so much as trying to get interviews, travel logistics, and organizing information especially) that I've become increasingly reticent to start. So I found myself with a number of interests, but still looking around the corner for a "perfect" topic. Of course, there is no perfect topic, I needed to dive in and start learning, rather than only wondering what else might be better to learn.
Otherwise, I'm so glad to hear that about Christie's book! I love her work. I know some people criticized it for saying that so much stuff doesn't work. My feeling is I want to know what we know, and if it's that most of the remedies out there aren't worth a lot, I'm glad to know that! So — beyond just enjoying the stories and the approach to science writing — I didn't find the takeaway depressing, but rather that there are basics that work, and certain habits of mind are useful. I'd rather that than spending money on supplements that don't work. In any case, so glad to hear that you're enjoying some of the books I recommend!
Hey David, that's really interesting to hear that you felt that way about taking on new projects, but also understandable in that a book project is a huge undertaking so it's important to find a good topic that fits. I can't even imagine how much work is involved! I remember reading you saying in an interview that your wife said "you went upstairs and didn't come down for a year" or something like that ha. I wonder do you have a big team to help with some of the logistics/interviews etc.? Also I remember reading that you paid a friend to review some research (for statistical rigour I think) and thought that was really cool! Well I'm glad you have decided on a subject matter to do a deep dive and I'm sure there will be no stopping you now! I agree completely about Christie's book! I'm sure she'd have liked nothing more than to discover that a lot of recovery tools were wonderful (like in her fun beer experiment!) but I also much prefer to know what doesn't work and not waste money and time on fads or whatever. Also it reinforced to me how important sleep is and I recently picked up Matthew Walker's book so I'm looking forward to that. Anyway, I hope the early stages of the new book project are going well and I'm looking forward to hearing more about that when the time is right. Thanks David.
Haha..."You went upstairs and came back down two years later." Not true! I also travelled a lot;) That was for my first book, which was more travel intensive than the second. I have no team at all for logistics. When I get invited to speak at an event, I do have a logistics coordinator for that, but in terms of my book stuff, I'm a one-guy operation for the logistics. Regarding the statistical piece, I did do that, and I've also paid for various other types of vetting or fact-checking (mistakes still get through, it just lessens the number and severity). With my first book, I paid two physiologists a token fee to just read the full manuscript for errors. It was great, but a pretty basic error still got through! It happens... and has since been corrected. (And nobody but a serious physiology student would have noticed, but that made it a little more surprising that the physiologists didn't catch it.) I guess I'm not a very good delegator. I even feel I need to transcribe some of my more in depth interviews myself, which is almost certainly not entirely true, but it's the system I have. I will say, compared to previous book projects, with the current one, instead of disappearing for two years, I'm talking about ideas to my editor a lot more along the way, both for her thoughts but also because that talking helps me clarify my own thinking. That's very useful, but for the core stuff, I'm a one-person team;)
It's really cool to hear about some of your process when it comes to book writing! I can understand the lack of delegation, it will ultimately be your name on the cover so I get that you want to have control to a large degree. I also remember you saying that a course in fiction writing helped clarify a lot of things for you when writing Range, I believe a big takeaway was going through various literature again to more fully understand it instead of using quotes. Also, I volunteer to read through any manuscripts/part of manuscripts for the new book for possible typos etc. absolutely free of charge! I actually have a good eye for grammar, spelling, punctuation typos etc. Maybe I could be the pre proofreading step! Ha.. anyway good to hear that this talking through errors is helping you clarify your thinking, sounds like a good filtering system through the process.
Great Q&A, David! I've been a fan of Ryan Holiday's for a few years. He packs so much wisdom into what he says that his writing feels very quotable, so it was really neat to see you two team up. The Gehrig quote is one I'll carry with me for a while. It has me thinking about what it means to me to be a teacher...
I'm curious: to the extent that you are comfortable sharing, what are some examples of lower-value activities you would do instead of the research/writing required for a longer book project? You may have heard this before, but it reminded me of Warren Buffet's Avoid-At-All-Cost List: https://jamesclear.com/buffett-focus
Cool! I read some of James's stuff, but had not heard of the Avoid-At-All-Cost List. That's a great idea.
In terms of my lower-value activities, here are a few that come right to mind: responding to all of my email. With help, I was able to divide my email into lists by priority. I've realized, though, that I can actually never answer most of it, and so the lists that aren't the first list basically shouldn't even exist. Lots of requests, for everything from help with homework to book blurbs to podcasts... Most of the requests for book blurbs I get are from people I like and whose work I like, and I'd probably like their books, but one can only read so many books. Same for podcasts, I'd probably really enjoy going on most of those podcasts, and some of them would be professionally useful, but I was doing way too many of them when I had help scheduling. There was a whole miscellany of things I'd get invited to, each one seeming like a cool one-off, and I started going to more of them when I had help with logistics. And it was almost always fun and/or stimulating! But I've realized I just need to be a lot more discerning with what can get done. Just in general I was responding to tons of requests to do things, and do favors. And I like doing certain kinds of favors, but I think I had to heed the Adam Grant advice to sort of pick buckets of the types of favors you can do and are good at, so that you have some boundaries. I was even doing more stuff around my house, which is nice, but not essential. Actually, I was responding to more messages on every platform I have. Take LinkedIn...I had a huge backlog of messages, many of them interesting, and from interesting people, and sharing interesting things or asking interesting questions or offering interesting opportunities, and once I started to answer some (again, in lists), I was like, "Oh, lots of good stuff here, I need to keep up with this." But I can't. I just can't worry about missing the good thing here and there, which will happen, because I need to focus on the stuff that I'm positive is higher value. I got into a few side projects too, like acting as a sort of advisor for a documentary. I could go on about this, but the capacity to do more stuff in general definitely did not lead me to do more of the high-value stuff. So now I don't have that help anymore, and it really forces me to do some Burkeman-style prioritization.
Thank you for another insightful post. I enjoyed seeing the images and how you both related to them.
Thank you for reading, and for these kind words Shelly!
David, excellent. Probably my 2nd or 3rd reading. But you know, I get a bit put-out by you writers, who lament the busyness of life, the travel that took me away from craft, etc. And the reflection imposed by the pandemic. You know, most of us live that life. We are in the arena. That is how we have impact or meaning in our meager lives. We work for people we shouldn’t and for the salary we need. Perhaps jealousy. But also in appreciation of the reflection. Thanks.
I subscribed to your newsletter fairly recently and just read this relatively “old” post today. Thank you. I’m fascinated by self-discipline, and I agree that “Discipline is Destiny.” While I also agree that boundaries, such as routines and crafted environments, can promote productivity, I have discovered something else, and I feel compelled to share it. Somewhere along the line, unintentionally but quite fortunately, I developed the ability to drop immediately into a state of productivity in almost any setting. I remember writing my dissertation on a laptop partially while I was sitting at a picnic table on campus. Today, I can work on anything—even a book project—just about anywhere at any time of day. Sometimes I compose while I’m walking or swimming and dictate (between laps, for example) into my phone. I don’t meant to boast, but merely to say that this ability, which perhaps came with a lot of experience and practice, increases my productivity dramatically because I don’t have to depend on having the right setting or a certain amount of time. I would PREFER to have a few hours to write, and I know sometimes it’s hard to stop, but I can make use of much shorter stretches and write when the spirit moves me or simply when I have the gift of a few minutes of time.
Interesting way of thinking about limitations. Thanks David, I learned somenthing!
I've been thinking a lot about useful constraints, as it's a central topic of a book I'm working on. Thank you for reading, and "I learned something" is the best compliment!
Thanks David! While I am late to the piece, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this piece. As much as discipline is important, I would suggest that avoiding distractions from 'near and dear' makes a huge difference. This piece certainly inspires me to work back on my writing again.
Hey David, thanks much for this refreshing post! I picked up this book at a store on Aug 20th (without having read any of Ryan's books before). Must say, your post was 'timely' in my case. :)
Loved the use of art in the art of questioning; super creative & thought-provoking piece!
Ha, it was ordained by the universe! ...Really appreciate the kind words, and the feedback has encouraged me to try this format again sometime.
Great interview format, very unique. Cheers to the both of you for your great work!
Appreciate the encouragement Jeffrey! And maybe I'll try it again sometime.
It's fascinating to see all this 'faith-based' or 'faith-inspired' practice revival across many parts of life.. Maybe we're realizing that Religions in general aren't so bad as we have advocated and propagated for over 2 centuries now in many parts of the human civilization.. It's also fascinating how people are engaging with these practices or modifying them to 'fit into' the modern life, rather than comply to the ancient practices themselves.. fascinating stuff all around..
This is a great and thoughtful comment. And I think, while religions are not viewed the way they once were by many people, there are still so many practitioners of various degrees, that I'd hesitate to say that the jury has come in and they've been deemed bad. I actually just saw in a bookstore yesterday a book titled "Religion in Human Evolution" by Bellah. I'm not entirely sure what it's about, but you've made me curious and now I think I'll probably buy it next time I'm there.
Stephen T. Asma, the writer and philosopher, has an interesting book called "Why we need religion" where he argues for the importance of religion from a sociological/psychological point of view. Fantastic piece on the subject! I'm also a big proponent of great book covers, case at hand: https://www.forewordreviews.com/books/covers/why-we-need-religion.w300.jpg
Sold! Thank you for this recommendation.
I hadn't realized that this was an image-centric Q and A till I saw your question at the end of the newsletter. It is a wonderful format.
I think that's probably good! So it wasn't a distraction. Thanks for the comment, and the encouragement to try it again sometime.
A great post, but I am confused by the conflation of sparta with freedom. The spartan culture was one of the most horrific cultures of slavery recorded. They kept an entire neighboring civilization in absolute bondage, including ritually going to ”war” with the slaves yearly. During this war the enslaved were unarmored and unarmed while young soldiers killed them.
There were 7 enslaved Helots per spartan.
How any of this relates to any concept of freedom that one might respect is hard to fathom. Except perhaps despotic freedom.
It is funny how they do not teach this in our western civ middle school classes. We hear about their martial prowess, but not their sociopathic culture. I still remember asking a teacher “If they spend their lives training for battle, who grows their food?” I don’t remember the exact response, but it sure as heck wasn’t the real story.
Fair points, Matt! And I certainly would've preferred to be an Athenian. (Not that they didn't have plenty of cruel aspects — including slavery.) The concept behind that quote Ryan featured, to me, is the general idea that discipline and structure can create a kind of freedom for individuals. When I read it, I thought back to when I was a college athlete, and how completely easy the clear structure of training made it for me to work hard, even though the training itself was rigorous. That said, your point is well taken, and in the future I'll try to think more about adding some note so that it doesn't feel like the context is completely ignored. I was thinking of adding in that same part of the post some words from William James about the importance of structure for allowing you to basically automate many of the small decisions of your day. It's really insightful, but he was very much unable to live his own advice. ....Contradictions abound. In any case, I appreciate you bringing this up, and it's a good reminder for me to think about adding notes of context.
Totally agree with the overall point. It may just be time to leave the Spartans behind! If discipline requires the subjugation of others (as it did for Sparta) than it is not laudable.