45 Comments

I love this advice and approach. I feel like as parents and coaches we try to "fix" every bad feeling or find the workaround, when the feeling itself is part of the game you love and have chosen to play. Our job as oldies/elders could also be to point out how many athletes have had great performances with all manner of pre-event feelings. There is no single magic state for peak performance. Well, other than the magic of being prepared, flexible and open to whatever the day serves up.

Expand full comment
author

Edie, great line here: "the feeling itself is part of the game you love and have chosen to play." Second great line: "Our job as oldies/elders could also be to point out how many athletes have had great performances with all manner of pre-event feelings." Third great line: "There is no single magic state for peak performance." Thanks for this comment!

Expand full comment

three great lines. I'm retiring...like yesterday! Thanks for all your great work.

Expand full comment
Jul 2Liked by David Epstein

Yes! Love this

Expand full comment
author

Thanks for reading Viven!

Expand full comment

This won’t work for athletics, but if you have to give a talk and ever feel disabled by anxiety, as many people do, have you heard of propranolol as needed?

Suffering can be alleviated, careers saved, and hearts calmed if that sympathetic nervous system overloads uncontrollably for some!

https://mccormickmd.substack.com/p/propranolol-for-situational-panic

Expand full comment
author
Jul 15·edited Jul 15Author

Ryan, I know some devoted readers read a lot of the comments, and I appreciate you leaving this here.

Expand full comment

Agreed, this was a great read, thank you!

Expand full comment
author

Thanks for the kind words, Lucy!

Expand full comment

This reminds me of something Layne Norton said on Peter Attia’a podcast. Before his power lifting meets where he’s nervous, he now does self talk reminding him that he’s anxious and nervous because he’s also excited, the stakes are high, etc. he leans into now instead of trying to “be zen” or make that anxiety go away.

Can’t find the clip but he also references it here:

https://www.instagram.com/biolayne/p/C6MyaXbLhrI/?locale=ru&hl=am-et

Expand full comment
author

Srini, thanks so much for this. I think the zen way of being is fantastic at times, but I really appreciate the idea that we don't actually have to do anything about an anxious mindset to get on with performance. In fact, I wonder if at some meta-level, just accepting and not judging or attempting to "be zen" is in fact capturing some of the principles of zen itself;)

Expand full comment

Yeah totally agree!

Expand full comment

I wish ever teen and young adult could read this story because this is normal and how it is for everyone. Unfortunately, these days such feelings are interpreted as feelings that require a safe space or a treatment to take the feelings away because they can’t possibly be normal. If you are a human being then these feelings are normal. If you want to become a whole person, an adult human being then you must learn that this kind of suffering is what precedes an effort that will bring you closer to adulthood. No one achieves anything worthwhile without effort and frequently an added dose of serious discomfort. That’s ok. The benefits are enormous. The power you feel at tolerating discomfort to achieve the task in hand is incomparably. It grows us up. It makes us into competent adults. I helps us to trust ourselves. Failure does that as well. Failure pushes one to try harder and is an essential building block in the making of an adult human being. Oftentimes one can learn more from failure than from success. But it’s through that failure that you find the wherewithal in your character to dig deeper and find success. Success is its own reward especially when it is hard won. Thank you for bringing this wonderful young athlete’s story to us. May we all sit better with our anxiousness, our fear and our refusal to be paralysed by any of these feelings. And may we never experience the regret that we did not try because of them.

Expand full comment
author

Marie, I really appreciate this passionate comment. I think you make an important point about not equating discomfort with abnormality. Easier said than done, but an important issue. I'm so glad you appreciated Allie Ostrander's story.

Expand full comment

I knew you were a derelict!

Seriously though, a lot of people in the trail running world ( including myself) don’t give David Roche enough credit. He really is the Ted Lasso of running. Underneath all the positivity though is a very thoughtful coach. I hope Allie stays with him for a while.

Expand full comment
author

The Ted Lasso of running...love that. I'm definitely going to be keeping my eyes and ears out for his work now.

Expand full comment

David and his wife, Dr. Megan Roche MD/PhD wrote a book called Happy Runner and have a podcast as well. A lot of people, mostly Jason Koop, hate on David, but he has had some very successful athletes. Clare Gallagher and Cat Bradley have both won Western States when being coached by David.

Expand full comment

Loving these track articles!

Expand full comment
author

Oh good! I'm sure I'm annoying some people so glad to have other track heads like me;)

Expand full comment

Thanks for highlighting Allie! She is one of a kind —- I was there when she crushed the HS record for the mile/1600 —- held by my friend since the 70s. And then she did it again. She’s always on a growth trajectory and we love her for it and for being a role model for all.

Expand full comment
author

Woaa, cool! I don't know the history of this record, but incredible to hear that it had stood since the '70s.

Expand full comment

David, I'm sure you will have MANY comments on this post. As usual, I have a story.

Back in the day (40 years ago), I had a friend/competitor who was the top collegiate 1500-meter runner in the U.S. I won't identify him, but his talent was extraordinary (e.g. American record in a triangular meet). He was, unfortunately, one of those runners who felt as though he would "throw up, pass out, and cry" before every race.

One year, at Penn Relays, he asked me to warm up with him, before his open 1500 and my Championship of America sprint medley, which were scheduled consecutively. I was in the paddock, at the edge of the track, watching him run, waiting to run my own race, and he won his race, defeating one of the top U.S. pros, and set a world leading time. He lurched over to me after the finish, and as I excitedly congratulated him, he threw up (almost) on my shoes.

A year later, I was walking on the street in Manhattan and ran into him. I was with my father, and after I introduced them, I asked, "So, how's the running?" I expected he would tell me about his plans to qualify for the Olympics, etc., but he said, "Oh, I've given up running. I've never felt better."

A sad story of promise unfulfilled, but ... a happy story in that my friend realised he wasn't able to manage the stress, and did the thing that would best support his mental health.

Expand full comment
author

Wow, another incredible story Roberto. And as a runner who got nervous, I have to say that even the mention of the Penn Relays paddock makes me a little squeamish. One year when I ran there, Allen Iverson decided to walk across the stadium, with an entourage and fans trailing, and it caused this crush up agains the paddock that made that spot even worse than it already was. Not sure I've ever gone into a race that cold!

Expand full comment

Hahaha, "only in Philly", as they say! I was reminded of Penn a month or so ago (World Relays?) when I learned that relay runners MUST retain their assigned positions even if the incoming athletes change positions dramatically.

Another very brief Penn remembrance: anchoring a university sprint medley, I had (of course) run through in my mind the possible scenarios, but having my teammate deliver the baton in first place (we were not a good team) was not one of them. I was fit, and I grabbed the stick and lit out, fast and relaxed. I came up to the 400 mark and heard the split: "... FORTY-NINE, FIFTY!" and I knew I was in trouble. What can you do, though? The toothpaste is out of the tube. So I continued on for another 200, feeling okay. The final 200 is probably Penn Relays legend. The "woo" index (if you know, you know) is rarely deployed in the negative, but in my case, I believe it was. My splits were 50/63. Ouch. Later, I walked past U.S. coach Larry Ellis, who said, "Roberto, that was a great ... 600." Gahahahaha!!! Thanks, coach!

Expand full comment

Also, I had a university teammate who at one point told me that he threw up before EVERY race. Since then I have met a handful of others who felt the same.

Fast forward to today, and last year I turned up for a local beer mile. I had organised a bunch of beer miles, but never run one, and my co-organiser said, "Why don't you run this one?" So I said to myself, "Yeah! Why DON'T I run this one?" And then an acquaintance turned up and he's a former British international sprinter, and then another guy turned up and he's a top junior cyclist, and I started thinking, "Am I not even going to get on the podium?" [Hahaha!] I did win it, but hilariously to me, the former GB sprinter was nervously DOING STRIDES before the beer mile! He's a very anxious guy, hahaha!

Expand full comment
author

hahaha...I totally get it. I think that would be me doing strides. Especially because I'm terrible at chugging (learned this in an *indoor* beer mile, of all things) so would have to try to make up for it;)

Expand full comment

Hahahaha, oh, I feel sorry for the facility manager, cleaning up after an indoor beer mile!

Expand full comment
author

In our defense, we did place trash cans around the track...I hope we were good about using them!

Expand full comment

Reminds me of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. It’s a great concept that any athlete can benefit from.

Expand full comment
author

Great point, Loren. Brad Stulberg has written really eloquently about ACT, and I'm staring at his book on my shelf right now, so I think I might go back over the section. Thanks for the prompt.

Expand full comment

David, i have seen Brad's comments about ACT on his social media accounts, but did not realize he had written a book on it. Which book?

Expand full comment
founding

Not much new to add here, David, but I'd like to second the comments that have already mentioned how simple and powerful this is. It reminds me of something I've read that I think was from either Stuhlberg or Magness (but also could've been from you): one of them (or you) talked to a coach who had great advice when athletes get nervous. They had one runner who would consistently get so nervous before a race that she'd throw up. So before one race, the coach had her plan out her usual timing of stretches and warm ups (as he always did), and then (in a new addition) he asked what time she wanted to throw up. If memory serves, the athlete was a little taken aback, but then it actually helped her out because she now felt like she was controlling this thing that was previously uncontrollable. And I think it even stopped helping her throw up.

I spent a few minutes looking through my notes to try and find where it was from, but no luck. Again, apologies if it's from you, but I've always found this story to be similarly powerful. I'll sometimes try to tell myself, "This is the part where I'll get nervous," and then I try to remind myself the nerves are my body giving me an extra gear. Sorry this was kind of a digression, but thanks for reading this and writing the post.

Expand full comment
author

Haha, wow, that's great. That one wasn't from me. That's a perceptive coach. Two questions for you: 1) You mentioned looking through your notes. Do you keep a lot of notes? If so, do you have any system? 2) If you're willing to share, what is something you've done in the not too distant past that made you nervous?

Expand full comment
founding

Long answer coming. Sorry! Feeling wordy today.

1. Yes probably too many haha. One thing I love about reading is how much a book can impact me, but I felt discouraged that one or two months on I would already have forgotten most of what any given book said (especially with non-fiction). So I tried a few things to counteract that. The first was annotating the book, which was enjoyable, but not all that helpful. (Side note: One of my favorite things to do with friends is to read a book they've annotated.) From there I started making a google doc for each book I finished with notes of my favorite things from the book. Helpful to return to especially with being able to search things in drive or on the doc, but still didn't really do much for retention. Some of my med student friends talked about the different things they'd try to learn so much information (I tried Anki, which was soul crushing), and every education book argues for practice retrieval, so that led me to my current iteration which is making a Quizlet flashcard set of my 5-7 absolute favorite things from every book I finish, and then I'll try to quiz myself 3 or 4 sets a day. At this point I think I have like close to 100 sets or so, which means it's not just the same few sets over and over. This, I've found, helps a TON with learning/memory for a bunch of reasons that education professors would probably be like, "Well, duh." I realize this is a little (a lot?) insane when I write it down, but it has really helped me remember books that I cherished and why I cherished them. It's not a perfect system, and I'm sure I'll iterate again soon, but I'm enjoying it in the meantime. You have one too, right? I can't remember if it gets more specific than your Master Thought List, but I know you've mentioned it before.

2. At the end of this past school year, each of my 10 7th grade advisees had to give a 1 hour presentation in front of me, 2 other teachers, and their families. They presented a cumulative project from each subject and answered Q&A testing their knowledge. We spent weeks working on their projects and presentations, and I knew how nervous they all were for it, especially with their families being there. Being with the families was so great, but it made me nervous too because I know how much they value the education of their children. As a teacher, I feel I've been given a great deal of responsibility to make good on the school's promise to each family, and these presentations felt like a reflection of both my work and the kids'. And it just really hurts to let a parent down. I facilitated the presentation and Q&A, but I couldn't help but feel nervous for the kids who wanted so badly to make their families proud. It's pretty funny though since I wasn't even the performer in the moment, but I guess it was nervousness about whether or not all my work over the course of the year had been good enough. (Thankfully, for the most part, it was :)

Expand full comment
author
Jul 10·edited Jul 10Author

These are great answers, and I am extremely impressed. I want to return to this in more detail, but quick question for now: if you use ebooks at all, have you tried Readwise as a form of spaced retrieval? (It also includes a quizzing function.) I generally find lower tech methods with good search preferable (I was super enthusiastic about Roam, and still use it, but rely way more on my Master Thought List), but like Readwise as a supplement.

Expand full comment
founding

Thanks haha. I haven't, would you recommend? You're the second person to bring up Readwise to me now. I think I prefer low tech more and more for most things for a lot of reasons Dr. Mark said in her book.

Expand full comment
author

another quick answer but I plan to circle back to your longer one: I think you're absolutely right to stick with the low tech. if you're interested in trying Readwise as a supplement, I'm pretty sure I can send some referral and you get a free trial or something, but frankly I'd stick with what's working for you. Nobody who reads a lot retains most of what the read in an explicit manner (although, I still think it tweaks their ideas and sensibilities), and it seems to me that whatever you're doing is working.

Expand full comment
founding

Sorry I was traveling but am now back home. Thanks for this!

Expand full comment
author

Matt, I know I'm way late, but just wanted to emphasize how much I appreciated item 2 here. I got a little chill reading it. Maybe because I've been watching the nervous coaches of Olympians in the stands these last few days. I think it's like that. (And I feel like I remember seeing that public speaking is the second most common fear to snakes...) Those students and families are lucky to have you. Think of all the stuff you're working on in that scenario! Not just the obvious content knowledge, but the responding to questions about their work (which happens in most jobs in one way or another), honing a presentation, performing under pressure. Yeah, I mean, you're developing performers at a critical point in the performance pipeline. Really neat to hear about that. Just out of curiosity, what were an example or two of the focus of a particular project?

Expand full comment

It's great advice and also, as you acknowledge, something that sounds simple but is really difficult as naturally, when feeling those intense, difficult feelings we want to find a way to make them better rather than to sit with them. Knowing that sitting them is still a temporary state is a good thing to focus on.

Expand full comment
author

Nikki, I think you hit a really important point: "sounds simple but is really difficult." A lot of sensible things sound good and easy but turn out to be very hard in the moment.

Expand full comment

I think you would be really interested in the team I am coaching at the Touch World Cup in July. We have the youngest team in opens history. Funnily enough, the 2 most even players I have are 15 or 16. I figure for them it's just a 'go out and play for the joy' sort of attitude. I have no idea where we will sit, we could go out in the round of 16, we could make the final, our variance is that wide. Makes coaching very different as you have to be much more willing to roll with the variance. Anyway have a look at this if you want to see what they are about https://youtu.be/FK1F3liqFug?si=Mkf8srMkT3hxK1CZ

Expand full comment
author

Besso, I did not even know this was an event! Thanks so much for broadening my horizons. ...Regarding those two players, I hope they'll be able to keep some of that. I'm reminded of a famous Swedish study of tennis players, in which kids (and especially girls) would be moved into a more "restrictive" environment once they were identified as very talented. It led to an enormous amount of quitting. In fact, if I can recall, every girl who was identified as in the top tier of talent very early had quit by like 17. Meanwhile, some of the slower developers weren't put in as restrictive an environment so quickly, and were able to develop, and a few became top 100 in the world, and one or two were top 10. Obviously not all training is sunshine and rainbows, but I think if the transition from fun to work is too abrupt, it can cause all sorts of problems, including with the athlete's attitude.

Expand full comment

Once they have the live stream link I'll send you it so you can watch a game

Expand full comment

David, you can watch the games here. https://youtube.com/@internationaltouch?si=i4jSyzM0atNICi8h live or later. We are Philippines Mixed Open

Expand full comment