Love this, David! I actually work with the woman who originally posted the dress meme (Cates Holderness, who works in marketing at Tumblr). I think about that way more often than is normal.
What a great rabbit hole to go down – the rabbit hole of the science of uncertainty! Thank you so much for bringing this up. You've interviewed somebody who is so highly respected not only by you, but by the very astute group of a few amazing science writers with whom I was speaking in the hallway at sports medicine meetings a couple of years ago. I knew them, but I didn't know the person to whom they introduced me -- your interviewee! And they clearly revered her also. The conversation between the two of you is very thoughtful, and I can see why they spoke of her so highly! I will definitely be exploring her and your links on this topic further. Thank you as always for choosing phenomenal folks to interview about amazing topics!
Angela, thanks for this comment! Doesn't surprise me at all that you heard this at a sports medicine meeting. Christie has done phenomenal working reporting on sports science and medicine, and it was actually through that that we first met. Really appreciate you reading, and in particular your very enthusiastic and kind last sentence! I know my interviewees span a broad spectrum — since I have no category other than that I find them interesting — so really nice to hear that you enjoy the Q&As.
This was a cool article for a number of reasons. I know that you've featured Christie before but I first ran into her work with her book, Good to Go. This particular article reminded of a couple of topics on the podcast, You Are Not So Smart that were fascinating and I highly recommend listening to. The dress was a great example also of how our priors inform our view of the world and some scientists wanted to see if they could replicate that effect and they did with Crocs and socks. Listen to the two episodes below if you are interested. The other episode was on certainty which is relevant to today's article and I also highly recommend. I recommend the podcast in general but these ones are a great follow on to this article.
Thanks Luke! We're definitely on the same wavelength...the dress episode in Christie's podcast also goes on to the Crocs and socks experiment, which I loved, but I didn't want to make the post too terribly long. I'm a fan of David McRaney's work, so really appreciate you alerting me to this, and I'll definitely check it out.
As always, we stan Christie Aschwanden! I'm really glad you did this Q&A because I truly had no idea she just came out with this podcast. From what you've written here before, I know this is a topic that is especially up your alley, which made for an ideal interview pair. I wanted to wait to comment until I finished the podcast, and it was well worth it. Do you have any other podcast recommendations? Any other limited series ones that have resonated with you at any point over the years?
Ps- SO pumped to hear Aschwanden is writing another book. Please let her know her fans are very excited!
I just took a photo of this and sent it to her, so she will definitely know. If I remember (or you remind me) when it's coming out, I'll get a signed copy for you.
Regarding other podcasts, I must say I'm not a great podcast listener. I bookmark tons of podcasts, but I almost never listen to them. Much more of a reader I guess. (Maybe partly because I like to take notes on everything?) As you know, I think Pablo's podcast is great. Did you listen to Miracle and Wonder? Technically an audiobook I guess, but more like a limited series podcast in both length and style, I think. I thought it was great. Have you listened to Hidden Brain? The host and I have so many interests in common it's almost weird. ....It won't surprise you to hear that I loved what I listened to of Frank Delaney's Re: Joyce podcast, in which he goes through every line of Ulysses, in five-minute episodes, until he died about 370 episodes in. I was also listening to Evan Shinners's WTFBach podcast on Bach's The Art of the Fugue. It's astounding, if you're interested in the topic, and will make more sense when you read chapter 4 of my next book;)
Wow that is SO kind! Thank you in advance. I hope it can be some encouragement during a tough moment of the book-writing process.
I also take notes on everything, and podcasts feel sometimes a little tough for me when I don't have something to use to write something down. I know my comprehension is like 5% of what it is when I read, and I'll forget what was said unless I happen to talk about it with someone else. These podcasts seem appropriately eclectic for what I understand to be your interests haha. Hidden Brain is terrific! I haven't listened to WTFBach, but I'll save it for post chapter 4.
No Miracle and Wonder for me yet, but a resolution of mine this year has been to listen to music more in albums/artists and less in singles that I like. It's been working really well with doing one album a month and listening to the Dissect podcast breakdown the albums line-by-line and note-by-note. Not sure if you've heard of Dissect, but it's wildly in depth. Sometimes over an hour dissecting a single song. It sounds like it is just as in depth as the podcasts you mentioned, so if you like any of the albums the host has dissected, it might be something you'd enjoy. Sorry for the tangent, but all of this is to say Paul Simon and Miracle and Wonder will absolutely now be added to my listen for an artist of the month. Thanks for the rec.
So many thing going through my head upon reading this. I work in a totally different domain, but so much of this conversation is applicable! I’m such a fox (as described in Range) that I’m going to use some of the quotes here in conversations with peers. I look forward to listening to these podcasts as well!
In one of the chapters of 'Joy of Science' there is a concept that is identified as fundamental: 'embracing the unknown'. I think it's very in line with the wonderful insights of this issue. The unknown, what can be explored, the 'gaps' in knowledge are something that can prove highly interesting and even overwhelming. In reality, this concept goes even beyond simple research, going to recommend - especially with the development of the author of the book - different possibilities on how to embrace the unknown and manage uncertainty in everyday life.
I'm happy about it! P.S. I read your book and it was one of the first to become passionate about writing that included many scientific insights. So, it's as if my AI research newsletter also has a bit of 'RANGE' in it.
Another fascinating exchange, David. Can’t wait to listen to the podcast.
Whenever I’m in the grip of « I just want to know what’s going to happen, », this quote from Eckhart Tollé helps change my relationship to uncertainty: « If uncertainty is unacceptable to you, it turns into fear. If it is perfectly acceptable, it turns into increased aliveness, alertness, and creativity. »
It’s the difference between trying to control what happens (and feeling out of control) and having confidence in your ability to handle whatever happens (i.e. feeling a sense of control).
Thanks for this David, I loved Christie's book 'Good To Go' and I will definitely check this podcast miniseries out! Even though I'm bad at actually doing any of the work myself I do really appreciate the rigour of scientific research and the effort that goes into questioning and validating studies etc. I remember you saying that you worked with friends on the methodology side of validating scientific studies and this sounded really cool. This dress meme reminds me of the Müller Lyer Illusion, which I vaguely remembered from Thinking, Fast and Slow. Excited to hear that Christie is also working on a new book too 📖
William, either you're very well read or you just retain a lot! (Which is equally good...) Thanks for reminding me of the Müller Lyer Illusion; I hadn't thought about that in a long time. As far as vetting studies, there's no perfect system, so I think all we can do is try to improve the chances that we focus on true findings. And I think that goes for scientists and science writers...but this is part of my job, so I don't think everyone should be taking their time doing it. That said, I think even a few simple habits of mind (is this positing a tiny intervention that makes a huge impact in something that seems hard to change?) I think can instantly create some healthy caution. There's no reason you should remember back when I wrote a post about the Finnish sauna study (I barely remember), but that's another one; the subject groups were clearly divided post hoc, which is red flag. There's a famous analogy for this in science, of a sharpshooter who fires all over a wall, and then walks up and draws a bullseye around the largest group of holes.
Ps I finally convinced my older (more intelligent) brother to start reading Range 📚 he's very well read, has read all his life and reads much more 'widely' than me (excuse the pun!) although his wife recently gave birth to twin girls so that slowed him down for a while! I'll report back if he has any interesting takeaways..
Haha, I'm definitely not well read! (Started late, I'm slow and I struggle with concentration to just do it!) and tbh I only retain a lot of what I'm very interested in, which includes a lot of the topics that you write about! I couldn't even remember the name of the Müller Lyer Illusion ha but the part of your Q&A with Christie where she talks about "naive realism" reminded me of this idea of being sure of what we are looking at but then being proven wrong! Guess it shows how easy it is to make false assumptions.. and I love that sharpshooter analogy so thanks very much for sharing it!
Love this, David! I actually work with the woman who originally posted the dress meme (Cates Holderness, who works in marketing at Tumblr). I think about that way more often than is normal.
Ok, that is an exceptional claim to fame. If you have any fun inside stories...don't hold out on us!!
What a great rabbit hole to go down – the rabbit hole of the science of uncertainty! Thank you so much for bringing this up. You've interviewed somebody who is so highly respected not only by you, but by the very astute group of a few amazing science writers with whom I was speaking in the hallway at sports medicine meetings a couple of years ago. I knew them, but I didn't know the person to whom they introduced me -- your interviewee! And they clearly revered her also. The conversation between the two of you is very thoughtful, and I can see why they spoke of her so highly! I will definitely be exploring her and your links on this topic further. Thank you as always for choosing phenomenal folks to interview about amazing topics!
Angela, thanks for this comment! Doesn't surprise me at all that you heard this at a sports medicine meeting. Christie has done phenomenal working reporting on sports science and medicine, and it was actually through that that we first met. Really appreciate you reading, and in particular your very enthusiastic and kind last sentence! I know my interviewees span a broad spectrum — since I have no category other than that I find them interesting — so really nice to hear that you enjoy the Q&As.
This was a cool article for a number of reasons. I know that you've featured Christie before but I first ran into her work with her book, Good to Go. This particular article reminded of a couple of topics on the podcast, You Are Not So Smart that were fascinating and I highly recommend listening to. The dress was a great example also of how our priors inform our view of the world and some scientists wanted to see if they could replicate that effect and they did with Crocs and socks. Listen to the two episodes below if you are interested. The other episode was on certainty which is relevant to today's article and I also highly recommend. I recommend the podcast in general but these ones are a great follow on to this article.
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2020/03/09/yanss-175-how-a-divisive-photograph-of-a-perceptually-ambiguous-dress-lead-one-scientist-to-build-the-nuclear-bomb-of-cognitive-science-out-of-socks-and-crocs-part-one/
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2020/03/25/yanss-175-how-socks-and-crocs-reveal-the-science-behind-why-we-can-share-an-opinion-about-something-that-doesnt-feel-like-an-opinion/
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2021/05/05/yanss-204-why-belief-is-not-a-conscious-choice-and-certainty-is-feeling-not-a-conclusion/
Thanks Luke! We're definitely on the same wavelength...the dress episode in Christie's podcast also goes on to the Crocs and socks experiment, which I loved, but I didn't want to make the post too terribly long. I'm a fan of David McRaney's work, so really appreciate you alerting me to this, and I'll definitely check it out.
As always, we stan Christie Aschwanden! I'm really glad you did this Q&A because I truly had no idea she just came out with this podcast. From what you've written here before, I know this is a topic that is especially up your alley, which made for an ideal interview pair. I wanted to wait to comment until I finished the podcast, and it was well worth it. Do you have any other podcast recommendations? Any other limited series ones that have resonated with you at any point over the years?
Ps- SO pumped to hear Aschwanden is writing another book. Please let her know her fans are very excited!
I just took a photo of this and sent it to her, so she will definitely know. If I remember (or you remind me) when it's coming out, I'll get a signed copy for you.
Regarding other podcasts, I must say I'm not a great podcast listener. I bookmark tons of podcasts, but I almost never listen to them. Much more of a reader I guess. (Maybe partly because I like to take notes on everything?) As you know, I think Pablo's podcast is great. Did you listen to Miracle and Wonder? Technically an audiobook I guess, but more like a limited series podcast in both length and style, I think. I thought it was great. Have you listened to Hidden Brain? The host and I have so many interests in common it's almost weird. ....It won't surprise you to hear that I loved what I listened to of Frank Delaney's Re: Joyce podcast, in which he goes through every line of Ulysses, in five-minute episodes, until he died about 370 episodes in. I was also listening to Evan Shinners's WTFBach podcast on Bach's The Art of the Fugue. It's astounding, if you're interested in the topic, and will make more sense when you read chapter 4 of my next book;)
Wow that is SO kind! Thank you in advance. I hope it can be some encouragement during a tough moment of the book-writing process.
I also take notes on everything, and podcasts feel sometimes a little tough for me when I don't have something to use to write something down. I know my comprehension is like 5% of what it is when I read, and I'll forget what was said unless I happen to talk about it with someone else. These podcasts seem appropriately eclectic for what I understand to be your interests haha. Hidden Brain is terrific! I haven't listened to WTFBach, but I'll save it for post chapter 4.
No Miracle and Wonder for me yet, but a resolution of mine this year has been to listen to music more in albums/artists and less in singles that I like. It's been working really well with doing one album a month and listening to the Dissect podcast breakdown the albums line-by-line and note-by-note. Not sure if you've heard of Dissect, but it's wildly in depth. Sometimes over an hour dissecting a single song. It sounds like it is just as in depth as the podcasts you mentioned, so if you like any of the albums the host has dissected, it might be something you'd enjoy. Sorry for the tangent, but all of this is to say Paul Simon and Miracle and Wonder will absolutely now be added to my listen for an artist of the month. Thanks for the rec.
So many thing going through my head upon reading this. I work in a totally different domain, but so much of this conversation is applicable! I’m such a fox (as described in Range) that I’m going to use some of the quotes here in conversations with peers. I look forward to listening to these podcasts as well!
Rethinking my take on certainty...https://open.substack.com/pub/tinkington/p/faithfully-uncertain?r=32cfba&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
In one of the chapters of 'Joy of Science' there is a concept that is identified as fundamental: 'embracing the unknown'. I think it's very in line with the wonderful insights of this issue. The unknown, what can be explored, the 'gaps' in knowledge are something that can prove highly interesting and even overwhelming. In reality, this concept goes even beyond simple research, going to recommend - especially with the development of the author of the book - different possibilities on how to embrace the unknown and manage uncertainty in everyday life.
Riccardo, I have Joy of Science, but haven't read it! You've just moved it up my reading list...
I'm happy about it! P.S. I read your book and it was one of the first to become passionate about writing that included many scientific insights. So, it's as if my AI research newsletter also has a bit of 'RANGE' in it.
Another fascinating exchange, David. Can’t wait to listen to the podcast.
Whenever I’m in the grip of « I just want to know what’s going to happen, », this quote from Eckhart Tollé helps change my relationship to uncertainty: « If uncertainty is unacceptable to you, it turns into fear. If it is perfectly acceptable, it turns into increased aliveness, alertness, and creativity. »
It’s the difference between trying to control what happens (and feeling out of control) and having confidence in your ability to handle whatever happens (i.e. feeling a sense of control).
Renita, thank you, as always, for an exceptional comment. Had I known that quote before, I would have used it in this post!
So good, right?!
Thanks for this David, I loved Christie's book 'Good To Go' and I will definitely check this podcast miniseries out! Even though I'm bad at actually doing any of the work myself I do really appreciate the rigour of scientific research and the effort that goes into questioning and validating studies etc. I remember you saying that you worked with friends on the methodology side of validating scientific studies and this sounded really cool. This dress meme reminds me of the Müller Lyer Illusion, which I vaguely remembered from Thinking, Fast and Slow. Excited to hear that Christie is also working on a new book too 📖
William, either you're very well read or you just retain a lot! (Which is equally good...) Thanks for reminding me of the Müller Lyer Illusion; I hadn't thought about that in a long time. As far as vetting studies, there's no perfect system, so I think all we can do is try to improve the chances that we focus on true findings. And I think that goes for scientists and science writers...but this is part of my job, so I don't think everyone should be taking their time doing it. That said, I think even a few simple habits of mind (is this positing a tiny intervention that makes a huge impact in something that seems hard to change?) I think can instantly create some healthy caution. There's no reason you should remember back when I wrote a post about the Finnish sauna study (I barely remember), but that's another one; the subject groups were clearly divided post hoc, which is red flag. There's a famous analogy for this in science, of a sharpshooter who fires all over a wall, and then walks up and draws a bullseye around the largest group of holes.
Ps I finally convinced my older (more intelligent) brother to start reading Range 📚 he's very well read, has read all his life and reads much more 'widely' than me (excuse the pun!) although his wife recently gave birth to twin girls so that slowed him down for a while! I'll report back if he has any interesting takeaways..
Haha, I'm definitely not well read! (Started late, I'm slow and I struggle with concentration to just do it!) and tbh I only retain a lot of what I'm very interested in, which includes a lot of the topics that you write about! I couldn't even remember the name of the Müller Lyer Illusion ha but the part of your Q&A with Christie where she talks about "naive realism" reminded me of this idea of being sure of what we are looking at but then being proven wrong! Guess it shows how easy it is to make false assumptions.. and I love that sharpshooter analogy so thanks very much for sharing it!
haha...I remembered the name of the illusion as "that line thing," so you're in good company;)