I read this article and was completely blown away (validated, even). Then I read the comments and was fascinated to see that a majority of the comments were some variation of “yeah, but what about…?” I’m a 38 year old female and have the (somewhat unique) vantage point of having been a freshman in college when Facebook launched. So in many ways I feel as though my sense of self was solidified before the overwhelming presence of social media, but was young enough when it came about, to also be able to speak on its effects. That being said, I agreed with everything in this article. It made perfect sense to me. I am currently someone who has deleted all social media apps from her phone, because my mental health was in the toilet, and can say with complete conviction that NOT engaging in social media has had an extremely positive impact on my mental health. Interestingly, months later my husband decided to remove Instagram from his phone as well. I found my husband’s experience compelling because he, the lucky soul, is extremely even-keeled and does not suffer from depression or compare himself to others on social media; and yet, even he reported (after the requisite week or so passed, as noted in the article) improved mental health, habits and an increased feeling of self worth. He noted that, during moments of down time, he was now engaging in more “present” activities that ultimately made him feel better about himself, instead of endless exercising his thumbs. So all this is to say, if someone like my sturdy husband can immediately notice a benefit from abstaining from social media…there’s really something to this. Of course it is much more nuanced than that, but I’ve already typed way too much 😅
Here in France, mobile phones are not allowed in schools (the government banned them in 2018) and teachers can and will confiscate them. Even with occasional stealth usage, that’s still a good chunk of the day that students are not on their phones. As Jon points out, kids actually appreciate having guardrails as long as they apply to everyone.
David, thanks for this excellent, in-depth interview with Jonathan. I have been eagerly awaiting the release of this book, as it delves deeply into the issues my husband and I have been writing about as well. As a parent, I am hopeful that the solid research and offered solutions will open a pathway to restore a healthier,more independent, relational,and reality-based childhood. Thanks again!
As an adult I have issues resisting the dopamine hit of many parts of the internet. It is definitely affecting developing brains and it starts young. I am a pediatrician and there is evidence that increased screen time is a factor in reducing the speed of speech development in young kids. And by my own observation I have noticed how so many kids and parents do not get off there phone even during a doctors visit unless asked.
Hey David, great post, as always.. honestly, for me this one falls into the bracket of 'really interesting, important and I'm glad such clever people are writing and educating on the topic but it's a little out of my intellectual reach so I'm grateful to be educated on the topic but not motivated to add the book to my ever growing reading list' if that makes sense! And that's in no way meant as a negative comment, in fact, it's something I love about this newsletter (touching on interesting, important topics that I don't come across every day or have opportunity to investigate further) ps I just saw the news that the legend Daniel Kahneman has left us. His book, Thinking, Fast and Slow had a big impact on me, I think he was just the most incredible mind I have come across and I know that you are a big fan and had that chapter title in Range 'Learning, Fast and Slow' as a reference to his great work. May he rest in peace.
In the past, Jon’s work has seemed well-reasoned and also intentionally provocative. As I’ve read his substack leading up to the book and this interview, it seems like his tone has shifted away from killing sacred cows to raising alarm. I don’t know if you see the same thing, but I am glad to have someone of his intellectual caliber owning this topic.
I’m kind of confused about the impact that social media has had on kids. I was talking to a mental health professional about this topic recently and this person told me there has always been a crisis in mental health amongst teenagers. Supposedly in the 1990s there was a spike in suicides among teens and throughout the 2000s. This professional told me suicides among teens go up and down and there is always some one waiting to blame the latest technology for these spikes. Supposedly in the 19th century adults thought bicycles were bad for kids mental health.
Thanks for this response David. That's nice to know, he always came across really well, and very humble in any interviews I heard or watched him in. It doesn't cost anything to be nice! It's good that you spent some time with him in person. I was interested to see that Gerd Gigerenzer had been a critic of some of his work. Hopefully it was just an intellectual disagreement. Ps how is the journey of book writing going for you? Hopefully you can enjoy it to a degree and not only have the related stress! Probably a nice distraction to work on an unrelated newsletter topic!
That's exactly what we all need !My version of reality is just that a version.Exchange helps us all to see.It's fun to see this take place with my daughter and her partner as they plan the future for our new granddaughter.Thet are working hard on listening.Nice to see.
Fascinating. The bit on the optimal injuries not being 0 reminds me of a basketball coach I had who told us we should never end a game with 0 fouls because it meant we weren't aggressive enough offensively. The data here really validates my anecdotal experience teaching middle schoolers. I can hardly think of any instances in which social media (and phones in general) have made a positive impact on any of my students. I can't remember if I've asked you this before, but have you thought about how you'll parent with regards to social media? It seems like it will risk social downsides if a kid isn't on it, but boy it seems to risk so much more if they are. Also, and this is becoming my favorite question after the Dr. Mark Q&A, are you changing any of your habits because of this book? From what you've said in the past it seems like you have a pretty minimalist (s/o Cal!) approach to social media already, so I imagine there might not be too much.
Every new parent should read Jon's work.
I read this article and was completely blown away (validated, even). Then I read the comments and was fascinated to see that a majority of the comments were some variation of “yeah, but what about…?” I’m a 38 year old female and have the (somewhat unique) vantage point of having been a freshman in college when Facebook launched. So in many ways I feel as though my sense of self was solidified before the overwhelming presence of social media, but was young enough when it came about, to also be able to speak on its effects. That being said, I agreed with everything in this article. It made perfect sense to me. I am currently someone who has deleted all social media apps from her phone, because my mental health was in the toilet, and can say with complete conviction that NOT engaging in social media has had an extremely positive impact on my mental health. Interestingly, months later my husband decided to remove Instagram from his phone as well. I found my husband’s experience compelling because he, the lucky soul, is extremely even-keeled and does not suffer from depression or compare himself to others on social media; and yet, even he reported (after the requisite week or so passed, as noted in the article) improved mental health, habits and an increased feeling of self worth. He noted that, during moments of down time, he was now engaging in more “present” activities that ultimately made him feel better about himself, instead of endless exercising his thumbs. So all this is to say, if someone like my sturdy husband can immediately notice a benefit from abstaining from social media…there’s really something to this. Of course it is much more nuanced than that, but I’ve already typed way too much 😅
Here in France, mobile phones are not allowed in schools (the government banned them in 2018) and teachers can and will confiscate them. Even with occasional stealth usage, that’s still a good chunk of the day that students are not on their phones. As Jon points out, kids actually appreciate having guardrails as long as they apply to everyone.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexledsom/2019/08/30/the-mobile-phone-ban-in-french-schools-one-year-on-would-it-work-elsewhere/
As a Gen X parent of Gen Z teens...I am baffled that there is no discussion of school shootings. Lockdown drills. Kids dying in school.
No discussion of bullying.
Did anyone...talk to teenagers?
David, thanks for this excellent, in-depth interview with Jonathan. I have been eagerly awaiting the release of this book, as it delves deeply into the issues my husband and I have been writing about as well. As a parent, I am hopeful that the solid research and offered solutions will open a pathway to restore a healthier,more independent, relational,and reality-based childhood. Thanks again!
As an adult I have issues resisting the dopamine hit of many parts of the internet. It is definitely affecting developing brains and it starts young. I am a pediatrician and there is evidence that increased screen time is a factor in reducing the speed of speech development in young kids. And by my own observation I have noticed how so many kids and parents do not get off there phone even during a doctors visit unless asked.
Hey David, great post, as always.. honestly, for me this one falls into the bracket of 'really interesting, important and I'm glad such clever people are writing and educating on the topic but it's a little out of my intellectual reach so I'm grateful to be educated on the topic but not motivated to add the book to my ever growing reading list' if that makes sense! And that's in no way meant as a negative comment, in fact, it's something I love about this newsletter (touching on interesting, important topics that I don't come across every day or have opportunity to investigate further) ps I just saw the news that the legend Daniel Kahneman has left us. His book, Thinking, Fast and Slow had a big impact on me, I think he was just the most incredible mind I have come across and I know that you are a big fan and had that chapter title in Range 'Learning, Fast and Slow' as a reference to his great work. May he rest in peace.
In the past, Jon’s work has seemed well-reasoned and also intentionally provocative. As I’ve read his substack leading up to the book and this interview, it seems like his tone has shifted away from killing sacred cows to raising alarm. I don’t know if you see the same thing, but I am glad to have someone of his intellectual caliber owning this topic.
I’m kind of confused about the impact that social media has had on kids. I was talking to a mental health professional about this topic recently and this person told me there has always been a crisis in mental health amongst teenagers. Supposedly in the 1990s there was a spike in suicides among teens and throughout the 2000s. This professional told me suicides among teens go up and down and there is always some one waiting to blame the latest technology for these spikes. Supposedly in the 19th century adults thought bicycles were bad for kids mental health.
Thanks for this response David. That's nice to know, he always came across really well, and very humble in any interviews I heard or watched him in. It doesn't cost anything to be nice! It's good that you spent some time with him in person. I was interested to see that Gerd Gigerenzer had been a critic of some of his work. Hopefully it was just an intellectual disagreement. Ps how is the journey of book writing going for you? Hopefully you can enjoy it to a degree and not only have the related stress! Probably a nice distraction to work on an unrelated newsletter topic!
https://open.substack.com/pub/hoisttheblackflag/p/what-does-not-kill-mehurts-my-feelings?r=26wsm2&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
That's exactly what we all need !My version of reality is just that a version.Exchange helps us all to see.It's fun to see this take place with my daughter and her partner as they plan the future for our new granddaughter.Thet are working hard on listening.Nice to see.
Gen X and lead exposure, LOL.
Hi David - thanks (as always) for writing:
On a similar topic, Noah Smith (among others) has written on how phone use may be driving down standardized test scores around the world:
https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/at-least-five-interesting-things-e3b
Here are some links to Haidt's and others academic writing on the topic of your article as well:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140197121000853
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10964-023-01800-y
Take care!
Fascinating. The bit on the optimal injuries not being 0 reminds me of a basketball coach I had who told us we should never end a game with 0 fouls because it meant we weren't aggressive enough offensively. The data here really validates my anecdotal experience teaching middle schoolers. I can hardly think of any instances in which social media (and phones in general) have made a positive impact on any of my students. I can't remember if I've asked you this before, but have you thought about how you'll parent with regards to social media? It seems like it will risk social downsides if a kid isn't on it, but boy it seems to risk so much more if they are. Also, and this is becoming my favorite question after the Dr. Mark Q&A, are you changing any of your habits because of this book? From what you've said in the past it seems like you have a pretty minimalist (s/o Cal!) approach to social media already, so I imagine there might not be too much.
Fascinating, thank you.