Wow! Great stuff.So "no regrets" to me sound a more like F-you.By that I mean we can still have no regrets about something I may have done BUT still no there will be consequences.Over my career I have lost jobs...great jobs over decisions I did not regret...run people out of a job for they did not have the "look" or "mindset" but they were getting results and were team players.Odd maybe but not poor performers.These folks had families to raise.Can them because they lacked image ??
So eventually I got canned.
And we all have to accept the bad within us to know that there is good.We do not know what good looks like unless we know bad.But hopefully from that we learn to grow.Buddhists use a practice call Tonglen that helps look at our own weakness by looking beyond ourselves to see others do suffer like we do.We accept ourselves for who we are and endeavor to be better.As Thich Nhat Hahn would say...what seeds will we water today.
Don, thanks for this great comment. You've got me reading about Tonglen! I appreciate this really candid, self-reflective post, and the fact that you got me interested in something new. Regarding the lack of a certain image, you reminded me of some old research that gave college football coaches fake reports on players (which they thought were real), and all the statistics would be exactly the same, but the only difference would be some wording in the introduction that likened this player to some well-known former player. And the coaches evaluations completely varied with changes in that simple description. So clearly image had a lot of pull!
Thanks for this. I listen to Steve’s podcast sometimes even though I’m not an athlete, but I wasn’t aware of this history. He seems like a great, down to earth guy; I haven’t read his books because again, not an athlete. But I think I will check this out—thanks again!
Glad you found it interesting! And he is a very down to earth guy. It definitely seemed to me that he did not enjoy the whistleblower spotlight at all. As for his books, sports comes up, but usually by way of analogy to some broader idea. Thanks for reading and for this comment, and hope you enjoy!
No disrespect to his fellow podcast hosts, but Steve is always the highlight for me. I'm in the market for audiobooks these days - have fallen a bit off of my strict media diet, with unfortunate consequences for my brain - so I'll check them out. Thanks once again!
The original research actually came from Scott Sandage's Born Losers. I blanked on the name on the interview, but go over it all in chapter 2 of the new book. I wasn't aware Burkeman covered it as well! Thanks.
Great insights in this interview! When you and Steve discussed the “that’s not who I am” way of thinking (and not growing), I immediately thought of how Joe Biden would say, after some human-caused terrible thing had happened, “that’s not who we [americans] are.” But it is! It may not be all that we are, but it is part of us.
This isn’t just for individuals. As a country, the US needs to wrestle with this complexity if we have any hope of moving beyond where we are now. Would that potential leaders read this book!
[feel free to delete this comment if it causes problems]
Carrie, first of all, I don't delete comments! And certainly not thoughtful comments (even if I disagree with them). I suppose I'd delete a comment if I felt like it was made purely just to insult or threaten someone else, but I've never done it yet. ....All that aside, this is a really insightful comment. I totally agree, that this concept applies to countries, and appreciate you making me think about it. It does seem directly applicable — if we just say "That's not who we are," we're basically eschewing the chance to learn something from it. I totally understand the desire (as individuals or a country) to reinforce the things we most cherish about ourselves, but not at the expense of the kind of compartmentalization you're talking about. This is a great point, and it'll be in my head next time I see a political leader say "That's not who we are."
Hey David 👋 long time no comment for me! Steve sounds like a very honest operator as there must have been huge pressure to keep quiet working within such a large organisation. The theme of some of this work reminded me of another book sitting on my shelf: Chatter: The Voice in Our Head, Why It Matters and How to Harness it by Ethan Cross. As someone who tends to dwell on past failings and struggles to move on from them this idea of trying to bring lessons from the failings to help going forward is a useful way of framing things. Ps I'm excited to hear how things are going with your new book project? I think you said previously that end of 2024 was like a first draft ballpark date?.. thanks. William
Hey William, nice to see you here! You're absolutely right about the pressure. In addition to the obvious sources, there was actually a strange moment when Steve was told to be a guinea pig where his pay was withheld and he was offered a loan instead of the salary agreed upon in his contract. If I recall, it was never explained, but felt to him like some attempt to apply pressure. ...As to Ethan, I'm a fan of his work. I actually had him on as the guest expert in my brief stint hosing a Slate podcast. (https://slate.com/podcasts/how-to/2021/03/how-to-stop-overthinking) ...Regarding the new book, good memory! I did indeed turn the draft in at the end of last year, got some high-level feedback, and I'm about to turn it in again with changes responsive to that feedback. It's been an interesting journey, because I had an architecture for the book before I began writing — for the first time ever — and it led me to write in order, also for the first time ever. It was both harrowing and invigorating to suddenly have a new process. When it's done, I'll be eager for you to let me know if it worked. At this point, I've kind of lost perspective.
Hey David, it's such a treat whenever you and the Growth Equation guys get together! Magness says a few things hear that speak very directly to concerns I have and used to have, so I can't wait to read his book. My first question: did you have a hobby when you used to be a competitive runner? Baseball, classes, and different extracurriculars took up most of my time in school, so I didn't ever make time for one.
Also, I was thinking about your interviews. I know you read a lot of fiction, but (if memory serves) most of these interview-the-author posts have been non-fiction. With non-fiction interviews, you do a good job of making different points really accessible to someone who hasn't read the book. But I figure that might be a little tougher with a fiction narrative. Do you think you'd have to change your strategy if you interviewed a fiction author, or would it be more or less the same?
Ha, I love it when someone (other than me) is able to follow the sort of ongoing conversations I have with a few other writers. When I was a competitive runner, I largely did not have a hobby, and that was a mistake. My senior year, I joined the Buddhist meditation club (the previous year I'd taken an elective on major texts of East Asia and got interested), and man did that improve my running. I'm not kidding when I tell you that when I sprained my ankle in a race (stepped on the track rail amid a pile up), it harmed my training not because of the ankle sprain but because I couldn't sit for meditation for a while. I was back to training a few days later, but not back to Buddhist meditation club for longer. I wasn't doing that to have a hobby — I think, like Steve, I probably wouldn't have started knitting — but it made a big impact for me. In school and track, I think. That said, I do think that, in college, school itself was so different from track — and some of it I really enjoyed — that I had plenty of other stuff to think about. Around exam times, though, the convergence of stressful things I'm sure wasn't helpful, and that's where an actual hobby would've been good. (Have you ever seen the studies that find that college sports injury rates spike around exams?) What extracurriculars did you do?
That's a really interesting question about fiction! I only interviewed one fiction author for the newsletter than I can recall, and even then I kind of interviewed with an eye toward some things that didn't have to do with the work itself. (i.e. Her background as a Nike corporate strategist.) Gosh, would I change my strategy.... I think it depends what I'm going for. If doing it just for my own curiosity, yes I would. I primarily interview non-fiction authors here because they represent a convergence of my interests and what I'm guessing (and it's very much a guess...I'm not doing any sophisticated tracking) are the interests of people reading this newsletter, who probably came to it reading my non-fiction work. One of my favorite things I've ever done was the launch Q&A with Isabel Allende for the English version of one of her novels. (Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWgvS0rXR58) Thankfully, her husband told her to take a chance on having me do this interview. I really prepped a lot, and it was a great experience. I've never seen people react to a writer, or almost any person, like they did to Allende. People just wanted to touch her as she walked past, and to give her letters from their parents and grandparents — in many cases I think those parents and grandparents had left their home country. The closest I've ever seen to that sort of personal reaction was Kobe Bryant in China at the 2008 Olympics. ...Of course, reading a book while prepping to interview the author leads me to read it more slowly and deeply. So that was fun. But this interview is still conducted with the audience in mind, obviously, and I'm assuming that they are slightly familiar with the general premise of the book (i.e. they probably read the cover flap), but because it's brand new have not read it. If I were going to to interview Isabel for my own interests, it would be different, because there would be no need to go over basic aspects of the book. I'd ask a lot more about craft. And I think that would be fascinating for certain readers, but probably not so great for most readers of this newsletter. I don't know, though, and I'm willing to experiment. To bring this full circle, I did get to interview Isabel later on, several times, targeting my own interests. Some of that, actually, will be in the new book, and maybe I'll use other parts in this newsletter at some point. Frankly, I'd love to start interviewing fiction writers and listening to them talk about craft and their influences. I think my interviewing strategy would still be to ask them about certain aspects of performance — how they work, what they've found helps and what doesn't, what they read, etc., but I think I'd probably digress a little more to talk about fiction and storytelling and culture and history in general, and not keeping as focused on what they have to say about self improvement. Would you be interested in interviews with fiction writers?
Thanks for the thoughtful comment! It's fun both to track your conversations and also do things like read your blurbs about each others' books. I asked Dan Lieberman once about book blurbing and the politics of it were surprising and entertaining. But yes! I have read that study about college exams and injuries! It's such a fun one. My sister is skeptical (too skeptical, I'd argue) about all of psychology research done that uses college students as subjects to make broader claims about humanity. She feels this way because she took psych classes where she had to participate in studies for credit in the class, so she argues samples have heavy biases and are even at times coerced. But studies like that one are about college athletes specifically, so she can't argue!
Anyway, I love hearing that about Buddhist meditation. I think a bias I'm working to overcome is trying not to devalue things that are hard to measure, and your testimony about how Buddhist meditation helped you is a perfect example of that! I did a bunch of extracurriculars. I was really involved with our Student Athlete Advisory Committee (SAAC), which I think every college has. But I had two other favorites. One was I signed up with our Institute of Politics to teach civics classes once a week to fifth grades classes around Boston (this was a big part of realizing I wanted to be a teacher). The other was I was one of the heads of the first-year peer advisor program. Basically, every freshman got assigned an upperclassmen mentor to meet with them regularly, host study breaks for the dorm, etc. I did that and loved it, and I ended up becoming one of the heads where I trained other peer advisors. It was a great time, and led to meeting some of my best friends from school. Did you do any besides track?
That sounds like a wild experience about Allende. I've never heard of so many people respond that way to anyone, let alone witness it. It sounds like some of the probably-embellished word of mouth stories my dad tells about Muhammad Ali, but even then I've never heard of people carrying relatives' letters. It's funny too that her husband convinced her to let you do the interview when she starts off that clip by saying, "I have bad luck with microphones... and men." Anyway, I would of course be interested in that interview, though I also suspect it might be slightly different than the interests of the readers of this newsletter. I love hearing about writing craft (or any craft), as you've probably gathered since I've asked so many questions about it. Did you or Dr. Mark mention that Allende will blow out a candle when she's done with her work? Details like that I find fascinating for whatever reason. I briefly had a vision of writing a book where I just asked the most successful people about their habits and routines until I realized Tim Ferriss already did exactly that haha. So, yes, I'd read it. But I realize I'm probably not the median Range Widely reader.
Hey Jeff, very cool that you've followed us following each other, as it were. I've learned a lot from those too, and really glad to hear I'm not the only one getting something from it.
I've been following Steve's work, reading his books, etc. for a long time. At 63, with the last 23 years as a runner, it wouldn't have been the same without it. Kara Goucher also deserves a shout-out about Nike. Her memoir is powerful!
Hey congrats on nearly two-dozen years as a runner Karl! What led you to pick it up? ...As to Kara, absolutely. I think I pop up in that memoir once or twice;) She's a great commentator on NBC now
Thanks! I'm writing my memoir and that's a pivotal point. I was not an athlete until I was 40 and a friend of my wife and I had just lost her little boy to leukemia. I received a postcard inviting me to an information session about Team in Training, to run a marathon as a fundraiser for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society. I joined the team and The Baltimore Marathon was my first race! Now I have over 30 marathons and two ultras under my belt.
Wow, that is a bittersweet story, but it's wonderful to see that it became something incredible both for you and for the world! (My science writing career started with the death of a friend — collapsed a few steps after finishing a mile race.) Congrats on that running resume, and I hope writing the memoir is .... I never know the right word to use, because I wouldn't call writing "fun" exactly, but it's incredibly engaging for me, so I'll go with that. I hope writing the memoir is incredibly engaging
It is very engaging! With a little over 300 pages done and regular revisions, I’m looking forward to the “finish line” and hope to secure an agent and/or traditional publisher. I won’t self-publish but will consider hybrid publishers, although I don’t necessarily want to shell out that kind of cash.
Wow that's crazy re the loan for salary exchange scenario! Interesting, I must check out that podcast episode, thanks for the link! And well done on meeting the end of year target, that sounds very orderly and professional to still be on track with such a demanding project! (Not fouling foul to the planning fallacy) I wonder were any of the takeaways from Gloria's book that you covered helpful in getting into a writing flow state or keeping to the plan as it were? (I've struggled a lot lately with concentrating on the task at hand) I think if the new layout architecture worked and helped to simplify the process in some way then that sounds positive and I'd be delighted to give you feedback on this whenever the project concludes. Looking forward to it already 🙌
Haha...well, I try to factor in the planning fallacy with a simple rule of thumb: anything is going to take twice as long as my first instinct. (For home maintenance my rule is twice as long and 50% more expensive.) ...Absolutely I've taken things from Gloria's book, and spending time with her. (Her work is featured in a chapter of the new book.) I'm much more attentive to switching costs and "brain residue" than I was before. So I now never start my day with email unless the day is basically entirely designated for email and administrative stuff. And instead of making tetris out of my Google calendar, if I really have to organize research and write, I think in units of half day, or full day, and anything less than that isn't a writing day, so should be for other stuff. In terms of residue, I keep a pad for when some intrusive thought about something I haven't finished enters my mind, and I find that just writing it down helps get it out of my mind and somewhere else. If I need to really be focused, I don't just turn my phone off, I leave it another room. I also work more in intervals instead of pretending I can focus for hours straight. (I've been using a simple time timer for that and quite like it.) I've taken quite a bit from her work, but the biggest again is just being more cognizant of switching costs, which led me not to start with email (or other inboxes), because they can never be finished and so all the unfinished stuff will just be in my mind all day.
Ha, that's a good rule of thumb to use! I might borrow that.. and I'm sure the 50% additional expense turns out to be conservative! That's great to hear that you've incorporated so much from Gloria's work as I have this book on my shelf as well 🙈 so that's definitely encouraged me to move it up my list! Some really practical tips there so I might try some of them out, thanks. On a tangent as usual.. I recently read Agassi's autobiography and really enjoyed it! I was led to it after reading 'The Racket' by Conor Niland (an Irish tennis player who wrote this excellent book about life on the tour through the lens of one of the 99% outside of the world's top players) very random but it was really well received and I'd certainly recommend it and it randomly led me to read Agassi which I'm glad about as it's always been mentioned as one of the top sports autobiographies.
“even reflected in our hormonal profile after we lose. If we have more of this complex self, this diversified sense of meaning, we'll generally see a lower hit of stress hormones than if it's all or nothing.”
This reminds me of an idea I ran across in Parker J. Palmer’s book Let Your Life Speak, some years ago when I was in a crisis situation. He noted that especially men lose their sense of identity, feel like total failures, even to the point of suicidality (? it’s been a while since I read this) when their work is taken away from them. Because work was their entire identity.
I hadn't heard of that book, but this echoes the sentiment I saw from economist Ed Glaeser in a talk. He was citing data related to the identity component of work. It also reminds me of the great Emile Durkheim, who first put together suicide statistics when governments started keeping them. He showed that suicide had a social component and wasn't just some individual aberration. Interestingly, he showed that major economic dislocations led to increased suicide even if it was an economic boom rather than a bust — if the identity change was too rapid, it had some nefarious impacts.
Are there parallel connections to “I failed” becoming “I am a failure”? “He lied” becoming “he is a liar”? Austin Kleon’s* “Forget the noun, do the verb” not yet being necessary because normal?
No regrets / spiral downward / middle path: What is this feeling teaching me that will help me behave differently next time?”
I’m considering this from the Catholic background I came from and which I now see with distance. It made me also wonder: why are cultures of cruelty so common in Catholic schools? And whether this might help answer it.
Confession might be the equivalent of the
middle road: go and sin no more. Do better! But there’s no real reflection on how you can do better, especially where other people are affected by your actions (i.e watching sex videos is considered worse than cruelty to others). And almost no reason to, because you solve it regularly by going to confession again.
But confession is embarrassing. You have to put yourself in the downward spiral, at least in the minutes before confession. So it’s easiest to take the no regrets stance of: I didn’t do anything wrong.
This is a really interesting take that I had not remotely considered. I don't think I have anything useful to add other than to say I love it when someone relates an idea I'm interested in to a scenario I hadn't considered, with specifics. So thank you for that. ...If you were made empress of confession tomorrow, what changes would you make?
There *was* already a change in the last quarter of the 19th century that had consequences. The pope reduced the age you could receive communion to 9 or 7, and because confession was a prerequisite for communion, the age of first confession was lowered too. When he made the change, the minimum age was 14 or 13. This comes up in writings on sexual abuse in the Catholic church: now adults had a space and time alone with younger children where they were also authorized to question them about their sins, and the worst sins in Catholic consciousness are sexual. As it happens, altar servers were not children back then either, as you had to have received all the sacraments of initiation to serve (baptism, confirmation, first communion).
I’ve officially left the Catholic church. Looking back, I don’t see confession as having brought anything positive in my own life, but I’m think about your question.
By "empress" I just meant to imply that you could make any change to the system you see fit. (Of course, I think the thought-experiment has to have limits, because if the answer is "I would change human nature," then I think it obviates the exercise altogether...) But given that confession didn't bring anything positive to your life, perhaps the question of how to keep the good and excise the bad is totally moot. That's pretty interesting in its own right.
Reflecting on your question, I’ve realized that during my growing up years, confession was the only time I had one-on-one talks with a non-family adult about my own life. So there’s that. Until the internet, which opened the world in that regard.
Maybe that’s something missing for (some? many?) kids today. I would look for that elsewhere than confession, though.
Wow! Great stuff.So "no regrets" to me sound a more like F-you.By that I mean we can still have no regrets about something I may have done BUT still no there will be consequences.Over my career I have lost jobs...great jobs over decisions I did not regret...run people out of a job for they did not have the "look" or "mindset" but they were getting results and were team players.Odd maybe but not poor performers.These folks had families to raise.Can them because they lacked image ??
So eventually I got canned.
And we all have to accept the bad within us to know that there is good.We do not know what good looks like unless we know bad.But hopefully from that we learn to grow.Buddhists use a practice call Tonglen that helps look at our own weakness by looking beyond ourselves to see others do suffer like we do.We accept ourselves for who we are and endeavor to be better.As Thich Nhat Hahn would say...what seeds will we water today.
Don, thanks for this great comment. You've got me reading about Tonglen! I appreciate this really candid, self-reflective post, and the fact that you got me interested in something new. Regarding the lack of a certain image, you reminded me of some old research that gave college football coaches fake reports on players (which they thought were real), and all the statistics would be exactly the same, but the only difference would be some wording in the introduction that likened this player to some well-known former player. And the coaches evaluations completely varied with changes in that simple description. So clearly image had a lot of pull!
This looks like a great book. It’s on my list!
Thanks for reading, and hope you enjoy, Sue!
Thanks for this. I listen to Steve’s podcast sometimes even though I’m not an athlete, but I wasn’t aware of this history. He seems like a great, down to earth guy; I haven’t read his books because again, not an athlete. But I think I will check this out—thanks again!
Glad you found it interesting! And he is a very down to earth guy. It definitely seemed to me that he did not enjoy the whistleblower spotlight at all. As for his books, sports comes up, but usually by way of analogy to some broader idea. Thanks for reading and for this comment, and hope you enjoy!
No disrespect to his fellow podcast hosts, but Steve is always the highlight for me. I'm in the market for audiobooks these days - have fallen a bit off of my strict media diet, with unfortunate consequences for my brain - so I'll check them out. Thanks once again!
The obscure book that talks about “made a failure” vs “I am a failure” is Oliver Burkeman’s The Antidote 💯
The original research actually came from Scott Sandage's Born Losers. I blanked on the name on the interview, but go over it all in chapter 2 of the new book. I wasn't aware Burkeman covered it as well! Thanks.
Burkeman probably citing Sandage’s work. I had just finished The Antidote. Weird coincidence as it’s a 2012 book.
Great insights in this interview! When you and Steve discussed the “that’s not who I am” way of thinking (and not growing), I immediately thought of how Joe Biden would say, after some human-caused terrible thing had happened, “that’s not who we [americans] are.” But it is! It may not be all that we are, but it is part of us.
This isn’t just for individuals. As a country, the US needs to wrestle with this complexity if we have any hope of moving beyond where we are now. Would that potential leaders read this book!
[feel free to delete this comment if it causes problems]
Carrie, first of all, I don't delete comments! And certainly not thoughtful comments (even if I disagree with them). I suppose I'd delete a comment if I felt like it was made purely just to insult or threaten someone else, but I've never done it yet. ....All that aside, this is a really insightful comment. I totally agree, that this concept applies to countries, and appreciate you making me think about it. It does seem directly applicable — if we just say "That's not who we are," we're basically eschewing the chance to learn something from it. I totally understand the desire (as individuals or a country) to reinforce the things we most cherish about ourselves, but not at the expense of the kind of compartmentalization you're talking about. This is a great point, and it'll be in my head next time I see a political leader say "That's not who we are."
Hey David 👋 long time no comment for me! Steve sounds like a very honest operator as there must have been huge pressure to keep quiet working within such a large organisation. The theme of some of this work reminded me of another book sitting on my shelf: Chatter: The Voice in Our Head, Why It Matters and How to Harness it by Ethan Cross. As someone who tends to dwell on past failings and struggles to move on from them this idea of trying to bring lessons from the failings to help going forward is a useful way of framing things. Ps I'm excited to hear how things are going with your new book project? I think you said previously that end of 2024 was like a first draft ballpark date?.. thanks. William
Hey William, nice to see you here! You're absolutely right about the pressure. In addition to the obvious sources, there was actually a strange moment when Steve was told to be a guinea pig where his pay was withheld and he was offered a loan instead of the salary agreed upon in his contract. If I recall, it was never explained, but felt to him like some attempt to apply pressure. ...As to Ethan, I'm a fan of his work. I actually had him on as the guest expert in my brief stint hosing a Slate podcast. (https://slate.com/podcasts/how-to/2021/03/how-to-stop-overthinking) ...Regarding the new book, good memory! I did indeed turn the draft in at the end of last year, got some high-level feedback, and I'm about to turn it in again with changes responsive to that feedback. It's been an interesting journey, because I had an architecture for the book before I began writing — for the first time ever — and it led me to write in order, also for the first time ever. It was both harrowing and invigorating to suddenly have a new process. When it's done, I'll be eager for you to let me know if it worked. At this point, I've kind of lost perspective.
Hey David, it's such a treat whenever you and the Growth Equation guys get together! Magness says a few things hear that speak very directly to concerns I have and used to have, so I can't wait to read his book. My first question: did you have a hobby when you used to be a competitive runner? Baseball, classes, and different extracurriculars took up most of my time in school, so I didn't ever make time for one.
Also, I was thinking about your interviews. I know you read a lot of fiction, but (if memory serves) most of these interview-the-author posts have been non-fiction. With non-fiction interviews, you do a good job of making different points really accessible to someone who hasn't read the book. But I figure that might be a little tougher with a fiction narrative. Do you think you'd have to change your strategy if you interviewed a fiction author, or would it be more or less the same?
Ha, I love it when someone (other than me) is able to follow the sort of ongoing conversations I have with a few other writers. When I was a competitive runner, I largely did not have a hobby, and that was a mistake. My senior year, I joined the Buddhist meditation club (the previous year I'd taken an elective on major texts of East Asia and got interested), and man did that improve my running. I'm not kidding when I tell you that when I sprained my ankle in a race (stepped on the track rail amid a pile up), it harmed my training not because of the ankle sprain but because I couldn't sit for meditation for a while. I was back to training a few days later, but not back to Buddhist meditation club for longer. I wasn't doing that to have a hobby — I think, like Steve, I probably wouldn't have started knitting — but it made a big impact for me. In school and track, I think. That said, I do think that, in college, school itself was so different from track — and some of it I really enjoyed — that I had plenty of other stuff to think about. Around exam times, though, the convergence of stressful things I'm sure wasn't helpful, and that's where an actual hobby would've been good. (Have you ever seen the studies that find that college sports injury rates spike around exams?) What extracurriculars did you do?
That's a really interesting question about fiction! I only interviewed one fiction author for the newsletter than I can recall, and even then I kind of interviewed with an eye toward some things that didn't have to do with the work itself. (i.e. Her background as a Nike corporate strategist.) Gosh, would I change my strategy.... I think it depends what I'm going for. If doing it just for my own curiosity, yes I would. I primarily interview non-fiction authors here because they represent a convergence of my interests and what I'm guessing (and it's very much a guess...I'm not doing any sophisticated tracking) are the interests of people reading this newsletter, who probably came to it reading my non-fiction work. One of my favorite things I've ever done was the launch Q&A with Isabel Allende for the English version of one of her novels. (Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWgvS0rXR58) Thankfully, her husband told her to take a chance on having me do this interview. I really prepped a lot, and it was a great experience. I've never seen people react to a writer, or almost any person, like they did to Allende. People just wanted to touch her as she walked past, and to give her letters from their parents and grandparents — in many cases I think those parents and grandparents had left their home country. The closest I've ever seen to that sort of personal reaction was Kobe Bryant in China at the 2008 Olympics. ...Of course, reading a book while prepping to interview the author leads me to read it more slowly and deeply. So that was fun. But this interview is still conducted with the audience in mind, obviously, and I'm assuming that they are slightly familiar with the general premise of the book (i.e. they probably read the cover flap), but because it's brand new have not read it. If I were going to to interview Isabel for my own interests, it would be different, because there would be no need to go over basic aspects of the book. I'd ask a lot more about craft. And I think that would be fascinating for certain readers, but probably not so great for most readers of this newsletter. I don't know, though, and I'm willing to experiment. To bring this full circle, I did get to interview Isabel later on, several times, targeting my own interests. Some of that, actually, will be in the new book, and maybe I'll use other parts in this newsletter at some point. Frankly, I'd love to start interviewing fiction writers and listening to them talk about craft and their influences. I think my interviewing strategy would still be to ask them about certain aspects of performance — how they work, what they've found helps and what doesn't, what they read, etc., but I think I'd probably digress a little more to talk about fiction and storytelling and culture and history in general, and not keeping as focused on what they have to say about self improvement. Would you be interested in interviews with fiction writers?
Thanks for the thoughtful comment! It's fun both to track your conversations and also do things like read your blurbs about each others' books. I asked Dan Lieberman once about book blurbing and the politics of it were surprising and entertaining. But yes! I have read that study about college exams and injuries! It's such a fun one. My sister is skeptical (too skeptical, I'd argue) about all of psychology research done that uses college students as subjects to make broader claims about humanity. She feels this way because she took psych classes where she had to participate in studies for credit in the class, so she argues samples have heavy biases and are even at times coerced. But studies like that one are about college athletes specifically, so she can't argue!
Anyway, I love hearing that about Buddhist meditation. I think a bias I'm working to overcome is trying not to devalue things that are hard to measure, and your testimony about how Buddhist meditation helped you is a perfect example of that! I did a bunch of extracurriculars. I was really involved with our Student Athlete Advisory Committee (SAAC), which I think every college has. But I had two other favorites. One was I signed up with our Institute of Politics to teach civics classes once a week to fifth grades classes around Boston (this was a big part of realizing I wanted to be a teacher). The other was I was one of the heads of the first-year peer advisor program. Basically, every freshman got assigned an upperclassmen mentor to meet with them regularly, host study breaks for the dorm, etc. I did that and loved it, and I ended up becoming one of the heads where I trained other peer advisors. It was a great time, and led to meeting some of my best friends from school. Did you do any besides track?
That sounds like a wild experience about Allende. I've never heard of so many people respond that way to anyone, let alone witness it. It sounds like some of the probably-embellished word of mouth stories my dad tells about Muhammad Ali, but even then I've never heard of people carrying relatives' letters. It's funny too that her husband convinced her to let you do the interview when she starts off that clip by saying, "I have bad luck with microphones... and men." Anyway, I would of course be interested in that interview, though I also suspect it might be slightly different than the interests of the readers of this newsletter. I love hearing about writing craft (or any craft), as you've probably gathered since I've asked so many questions about it. Did you or Dr. Mark mention that Allende will blow out a candle when she's done with her work? Details like that I find fascinating for whatever reason. I briefly had a vision of writing a book where I just asked the most successful people about their habits and routines until I realized Tim Ferriss already did exactly that haha. So, yes, I'd read it. But I realize I'm probably not the median Range Widely reader.
Steve is one of my favorites and I’ve always really appreciated the interactions between you and him (and Brad) about their and your work.
Hey Jeff, very cool that you've followed us following each other, as it were. I've learned a lot from those too, and really glad to hear I'm not the only one getting something from it.
When all the other variables are similar,that would be human nature no?
What was a shame was to see the lookers some of whom couldn't manage a checkbook,get to run a company.
This was a fascinating discussion, with lots to think about. And a new book to add to my ever growing to be read list! Thanks.
So glad you found it thought-provoking, Bridgitte. And adding to someone's ever-growing reading list is my favorite compliment;)
Good interview (as usual). Two things:
1. Do the right thing. Yes. Especially now.
2. Knitting, LOL, yes.
KNITTING! That's my takeaway.
I learned the other day that my 22-year-old nephew is a keen knitter. Or embroiderer. Or something. In any event, he's crafty!
If he gets too tightly wound about knitting (yes, intended), you obviously must force him to take up running.
As a Japanese acquaintance of mine who is around 75% of the way through a personal 100 x 100-mile race challenge is fond of saying, “Running sucks!” 😂
Holy... that is incredible. I wonder how many people have pulled that off.
Too many, probably! 😂 Here’s my interview with him, if you’re interested:
https://thejadedcynic.substack.com/p/interview-with-tomokazu-ihara-the
I've been following Steve's work, reading his books, etc. for a long time. At 63, with the last 23 years as a runner, it wouldn't have been the same without it. Kara Goucher also deserves a shout-out about Nike. Her memoir is powerful!
Hey congrats on nearly two-dozen years as a runner Karl! What led you to pick it up? ...As to Kara, absolutely. I think I pop up in that memoir once or twice;) She's a great commentator on NBC now
Thanks! I'm writing my memoir and that's a pivotal point. I was not an athlete until I was 40 and a friend of my wife and I had just lost her little boy to leukemia. I received a postcard inviting me to an information session about Team in Training, to run a marathon as a fundraiser for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society. I joined the team and The Baltimore Marathon was my first race! Now I have over 30 marathons and two ultras under my belt.
Wow, that is a bittersweet story, but it's wonderful to see that it became something incredible both for you and for the world! (My science writing career started with the death of a friend — collapsed a few steps after finishing a mile race.) Congrats on that running resume, and I hope writing the memoir is .... I never know the right word to use, because I wouldn't call writing "fun" exactly, but it's incredibly engaging for me, so I'll go with that. I hope writing the memoir is incredibly engaging
It is very engaging! With a little over 300 pages done and regular revisions, I’m looking forward to the “finish line” and hope to secure an agent and/or traditional publisher. I won’t self-publish but will consider hybrid publishers, although I don’t necessarily want to shell out that kind of cash.
Wow that's crazy re the loan for salary exchange scenario! Interesting, I must check out that podcast episode, thanks for the link! And well done on meeting the end of year target, that sounds very orderly and professional to still be on track with such a demanding project! (Not fouling foul to the planning fallacy) I wonder were any of the takeaways from Gloria's book that you covered helpful in getting into a writing flow state or keeping to the plan as it were? (I've struggled a lot lately with concentrating on the task at hand) I think if the new layout architecture worked and helped to simplify the process in some way then that sounds positive and I'd be delighted to give you feedback on this whenever the project concludes. Looking forward to it already 🙌
Haha...well, I try to factor in the planning fallacy with a simple rule of thumb: anything is going to take twice as long as my first instinct. (For home maintenance my rule is twice as long and 50% more expensive.) ...Absolutely I've taken things from Gloria's book, and spending time with her. (Her work is featured in a chapter of the new book.) I'm much more attentive to switching costs and "brain residue" than I was before. So I now never start my day with email unless the day is basically entirely designated for email and administrative stuff. And instead of making tetris out of my Google calendar, if I really have to organize research and write, I think in units of half day, or full day, and anything less than that isn't a writing day, so should be for other stuff. In terms of residue, I keep a pad for when some intrusive thought about something I haven't finished enters my mind, and I find that just writing it down helps get it out of my mind and somewhere else. If I need to really be focused, I don't just turn my phone off, I leave it another room. I also work more in intervals instead of pretending I can focus for hours straight. (I've been using a simple time timer for that and quite like it.) I've taken quite a bit from her work, but the biggest again is just being more cognizant of switching costs, which led me not to start with email (or other inboxes), because they can never be finished and so all the unfinished stuff will just be in my mind all day.
Ha, that's a good rule of thumb to use! I might borrow that.. and I'm sure the 50% additional expense turns out to be conservative! That's great to hear that you've incorporated so much from Gloria's work as I have this book on my shelf as well 🙈 so that's definitely encouraged me to move it up my list! Some really practical tips there so I might try some of them out, thanks. On a tangent as usual.. I recently read Agassi's autobiography and really enjoyed it! I was led to it after reading 'The Racket' by Conor Niland (an Irish tennis player who wrote this excellent book about life on the tour through the lens of one of the 99% outside of the world's top players) very random but it was really well received and I'd certainly recommend it and it randomly led me to read Agassi which I'm glad about as it's always been mentioned as one of the top sports autobiographies.
“even reflected in our hormonal profile after we lose. If we have more of this complex self, this diversified sense of meaning, we'll generally see a lower hit of stress hormones than if it's all or nothing.”
This reminds me of an idea I ran across in Parker J. Palmer’s book Let Your Life Speak, some years ago when I was in a crisis situation. He noted that especially men lose their sense of identity, feel like total failures, even to the point of suicidality (? it’s been a while since I read this) when their work is taken away from them. Because work was their entire identity.
I hadn't heard of that book, but this echoes the sentiment I saw from economist Ed Glaeser in a talk. He was citing data related to the identity component of work. It also reminds me of the great Emile Durkheim, who first put together suicide statistics when governments started keeping them. He showed that suicide had a social component and wasn't just some individual aberration. Interestingly, he showed that major economic dislocations led to increased suicide even if it was an economic boom rather than a bust — if the identity change was too rapid, it had some nefarious impacts.
Are there parallel connections to “I failed” becoming “I am a failure”? “He lied” becoming “he is a liar”? Austin Kleon’s* “Forget the noun, do the verb” not yet being necessary because normal?
*Or whoever else he got the idea from.
No regrets / spiral downward / middle path: What is this feeling teaching me that will help me behave differently next time?”
I’m considering this from the Catholic background I came from and which I now see with distance. It made me also wonder: why are cultures of cruelty so common in Catholic schools? And whether this might help answer it.
Confession might be the equivalent of the
middle road: go and sin no more. Do better! But there’s no real reflection on how you can do better, especially where other people are affected by your actions (i.e watching sex videos is considered worse than cruelty to others). And almost no reason to, because you solve it regularly by going to confession again.
But confession is embarrassing. You have to put yourself in the downward spiral, at least in the minutes before confession. So it’s easiest to take the no regrets stance of: I didn’t do anything wrong.
First thoughts here 🤔
This is a really interesting take that I had not remotely considered. I don't think I have anything useful to add other than to say I love it when someone relates an idea I'm interested in to a scenario I hadn't considered, with specifics. So thank you for that. ...If you were made empress of confession tomorrow, what changes would you make?
What does “make empress of” mean? Change?
There *was* already a change in the last quarter of the 19th century that had consequences. The pope reduced the age you could receive communion to 9 or 7, and because confession was a prerequisite for communion, the age of first confession was lowered too. When he made the change, the minimum age was 14 or 13. This comes up in writings on sexual abuse in the Catholic church: now adults had a space and time alone with younger children where they were also authorized to question them about their sins, and the worst sins in Catholic consciousness are sexual. As it happens, altar servers were not children back then either, as you had to have received all the sacraments of initiation to serve (baptism, confirmation, first communion).
I’ve officially left the Catholic church. Looking back, I don’t see confession as having brought anything positive in my own life, but I’m think about your question.
By "empress" I just meant to imply that you could make any change to the system you see fit. (Of course, I think the thought-experiment has to have limits, because if the answer is "I would change human nature," then I think it obviates the exercise altogether...) But given that confession didn't bring anything positive to your life, perhaps the question of how to keep the good and excise the bad is totally moot. That's pretty interesting in its own right.
Reflecting on your question, I’ve realized that during my growing up years, confession was the only time I had one-on-one talks with a non-family adult about my own life. So there’s that. Until the internet, which opened the world in that regard.
Maybe that’s something missing for (some? many?) kids today. I would look for that elsewhere than confession, though.
Thanks Emily, I appreciate this thoughtful response to my very nebulous question!