Dear David - I live in Zimbabwe and find no easy way to upgrade to paid. But I read your newsletters always with interest. This morning I met up with a friend from school. We last saw each other in 1957. We were 13 years old. Today he is 79 and I am 78. I found him alone in his house working at a laptop. We exchanged histories briefly. He was a farmer. He recounted how he and his wife were ambushed by terrorists (some people prefer to call them guerillas). His car was shot up. He drove through the ambush on the rims of the vehicle and stayed alive. He moved on, went farming near what is now Harare. In 1983 when he was 60 his farm was 'jambanjad'. That means 'stolen by force' in our language. His home was surrounded by 50 odd thugs armed with AK 47's, and machetes. In less than 45 minutes he lost everything he ever owned. And I mean everything material. He moved on, found work as an agricultural consultant. Today he works with his son. His son owns a crocodile farm in Zambia. My friend works remotely, analysing data sent in by remote cameras and other apps, ensuring the safety of the crocodiles (some of which have in the past been stolen). He also does other administrative tasks. He was throughout our conversation cheerful as we remembered other old friends from yesteryear. He lost is wife 18 months ago to age related illness. My friend surely is both rugged and flexible. He's not the only one here in Zimbabwe who lost everything material when they lost their farms to thuggery. I know many of them. I was not a farmer so I was not one of them. But I did lose my savings to hyper-inflation. I still work. Once I was a policeman. I moved into IT. Now I am a coach and mentor. Retirement never comes to mind. I shall work till I cannot work and most of all I will keep learning something new every day, if not from your posts, then from others and from my day to day experiences. Keep well, keep going, keep experiencing.
David, first, I appreciate the sentiment regarding upgrading, but in that case please just continue subscribing for free! Much more importantly, this is a remarkable comment. Powerfully written and head-spinning to read. I think it's probably difficult for many of us to understand the level of rugged flexibility those experiences engender. I'm inspired by the way you finished this comment, and I'm going to share this with Brad.
Wow, David, thank you so much for sharing all of this. What an inspirational and extreme example of rugged flexibility your life is, and also the value of conceiving life as an ongoing path (versus a planned out road). Thank you again for sharing this. Much love, Brad.
Thank you, Dave, again for the great interview. I'll do my best to come back here and check in over the next week so if any folks have questions, don't hesitate to ask them! Appreciate y'all grappling with these ideas!
Thanks! ...I forgot to solicit questions. I've realized that it actually makes a huge difference to how many comments are left if I prompt people to leave them. Wouldn't have guessed!
Thanks for this David! I just listened to Brad's conversation with Brett McKay on the way into work earlier this week. The idea of allostasis has been hanging with me all week. Such a great way to think about stability in the midst of ever-changing surroundings. Gives me ship of Theseus vibes too.
The link to the pod for others who may find it interesting. A great listen!
haha...the supple moose. I must have had Kelly Starrett on the brain. ...I like the invocation of ship of Theseus vibes. That's a thought experiment gift that just keeps giving, in my opinion.
Listened to Brad and Brett in conversation. Gave me a much better understanding of allostasis and homeostasis and the full concept of 'rugged flexibility'. Have you read 'Grit' by Angela Duckworth?
Thanks David, glad you enjoyed the interview. I haven't yet read 'Grit' by Angela Duckworth but it's been on the list. I've watched her TED talk about it and am familiar with the concept. Seems like maybe Grit is in the same constellation as Brad's ideas about rugged flexibility.
Thank-you for taking the time to interview Brad and write this article.
Also, it was a cool surprise to see my name quoted above, in reference to the questions posed to Brad.
I wanted to add one more question - as, I had mentioned in one of your posts from last week.
So, my favourite example from the book is the story of Nils Van Der Poel. I wanted to know from Brad, that along with Nils, who are some of his favourite athletes to have exhibited rugged flexibility over the course of their careers and life? Like Chelsea Sodaro, had just mentioned in an Instagram post: https://www.instagram.com/p/CxEXigOv0yz/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Hi Matt -- Brad here! Thanks for wrestling with the book so thoughtfully. Shalane Flanagan immediately comes to mind (runner AND cookbook extraordinaire, and now coach). It's not so much that you need a wildly diversified and "balanced" way of spending your time, more so you just need some other rooms in your identity house, even if they are smaller than the main one!
Haha...well, it's a quick read. I also have a (or a few) teetering stacks, and I actually get a lot of value out of just flipping something open and reading a bit here and there, knowing I couldn't finish the stacks in several lifetimes. ...and that doesn't even count my virtual stack on Kindle. Although that's far less useful for grabbing and flipping.
--An external locus of control is akin to a “having” orientation. It makes you fragile. An internal locus of control is akin to a “being” orientation--
What about the "doing" orientation? Sometimes we're defined by what we have, others by how we think, but many others by what we do. Where do you think this "doing" orientation can fit, if at all?
Rafa, this is a very interesting point. I tend to agree with David's suggestion below, that the "doing" may often be a consequence of the "being." But I'm not sure...I have to think about this, but it brought to mind a book I was recently reading by philosopher Todd May, in which he talks about "narrative values." Basically, conceptual themes that run through the story of you, and that are large enough to have an "objectively attractive" component — such as steadfastness, curiosity, love ... things that show up in the hero's journey narratives of every culture. I'm sorry I can't condense this more clearly at the moment, but I've been thinking a lot about my own narrative values, and hoping that keeping them in mind will align my "doing" with how I want to be.
My thoughts: A 'doing' orientation is likely to be a consequence of having a 'being' orientation. It would be good to hear what Brad has to say on this
Thanks for another excellent interview/article. Brad’s research and explanations are a bright light which are an aid in helping understand how people should view changes in life. So many people use the “good old days” as a base for their happiness instead of planning for and having reasonable expectations for the different stages of life.
I have seen this as I have retired and discuss how I’m approaching retirement with others who are retiring and approaching retirement. I’ve subscribed to the “diapers to diapers” theory and when I explain it to others it’s like a lightbulb going on. To me (retired at 65) it’s like this: When we are young we go from diapers to basically having fun growing up. This continues through college (or the end of high school) and then it’s into the “real world” where being on your own and working on your career brings stress, lots of responsibilities, etc etc.
Then you retire and many can’t figure out how to handle it. They become/remain inactive, get bored, get in ruts maybe go back to work, because that’s what they know. To me it’s time to have fun again. Exercise (to keep your physical and mental selves alert and capable), get together with friends/family, travel (if possible) etc. But it MUST come with the “reorder” concept. Time to have a blast and do it as long as you are able; before the return to “diapers”.
The concept of allostasis is brilliant and should be embraced by people throughout life. It just might help people be more happy and fulfilled instead of miserable/depressed.
Hi David, this is a fantastic interview, and I am also adding this book to my list, I’ll probably get to it within a year, but it seems really critical in terms of managing new realities, pursuing realistic goals of happiness, and successful aging.
The gulf between expectation and reality that can diminish happiness is incredibly important. Like when people try to adjust to post pandemic life. I think there are some important changes that need to be accepted and recalibrated in terms of happiness. For example, I am currently tightening up my behavior a bit with the current wave of Covid I’m seeing in the office, and nationally. I have also not gone back to cavalier 0% masking behavior, but rather protect myself situationally even though that represents a degradation of previous expectations and norms of social freedom.
Thanks again, I’ll stop dictating. Sorry if this comes out jumbled I listened to it while driving.
Hey Ryan, always appreciate your comments, particularly because you often leave specific examples from your own work or life that help me get a visceral understanding. ...I wonder if the so-called "silver tsunami" will change our perceptions of successful aging, for better or worse. My concern is that a lot of what people see will be via the filter of social media. Total aside: did you actually dictate this response?? If so, curious how that works for a Substack comment.
I'm glad the self-referential stuff is not too painful to read in the comments! I figure I can only add meaningful color to your comments using my own palette.
And I dictated just using the regular iPhone "speech to text" button, then at a stop light edited out the embarrassing auto-corrects. Half of my life is just winging it on the fly!
Again, great post, I forwarded it to 4 family members today.
Are you kidding, I love the referential stuff! One thing I like about my work is getting little insights or keyhole views into other peoples' lives and work. ...And I was wondering about how you got such clean transcription there, so that makes sense.
“We’re works in progress constantly claiming to be finished”
This bit grabbed my attention because I find myself time and time again telling folks who are younger than me that they don’t have to know what they want to be when they grow up, they don't have to find a passion, they just have to figure out what they are interested in now and work hard on getting better at it. How do we shift the way we talk to our young people about being adult? How do we show them that all of us are still figuring it out?
A really nice interview to read. Reading it felt just like reading The Practice of Groundedness (or anything else Stulberg says or writes), even skimming it makes me feel 10% less worried about all my neuroses. The idea of life being more x to y to z rather than x to y to x seems so obviously true after reading it that I'm slightly annoyed I hadn't thought of it before. I also think you both do a good job of adding concrete examples to demonstrate broader findings in research (e.g., yours with instagram filters and misaligned captions and his with the list of ways we change yet expect life to return to normal). Do you find that interviews are more in depth/interesting with someone you have a friendship or pre-existing relationship with?
Also, I know you posted this so long ago that you might not see this comment. I've been reading Aschwanden's Good to Go, and when I saw the bit on red wine in this interview I wanted to wait to respond until I finished the book. What a great read! It is so interesting to learn about recovery, but she also does a great job in explaining the scientific method and the differences of doing research well vs. poorly. I learned so much! Do you know if she's written anywhere about things we've learned in the past 4 years since the book came out? Or if there are any books you'd recommend that follow up with something similar?
Haha...nice connection! Christie's book is definitely where I learned about that. She does indeed do a great job making the scientific method part of the story. I will say, I know one aspect of the response to her book that I think limited its popularity was the idea that, well, she's just saying nothing works. I understand that reaction, but my feeling was that she's actually saying there are certain foundational things (like sleep) that work even better than you may think, and other sort of habits of mind about monitoring yourself that are important. On the one hand, it might be nice to hear some magic supplement is the thing. On the other, is that really the (more expensive) answer I'd want compared to what she says is useful? In any case, I just think the knee-jerk reaction to the book was that it's pessimistic, and I understand that, but don't really agree when I think about it more. ...I'll ask her if she has any updates, or recommendations. Actually, maybe I'll see if she wants to do a Q&A. If I did, if you'd want to contribute a specific question or two, happy to include them if I do it (and to credit you of course).
Yeah I think that's a more thoughtful response. I found it pretty freeing, honestly. Like with the supplements, she noted that a huge reasons athletes take them is essentially just FOMO, and now here's research saying that none of us need to feel FOMO. That was pretty amazing to hear! There were a bunch of examples of this: I don't need to worry about eating so quickly after a workout, I don't need to do painful recovery techniques, and don't need to obsess over my watch's recovery scores ("information is not the same of knowledge" is a terrific quote). It's pretty nice to know that we don't need to be the guy in the conclusion who has "the most expensive pee in California" and instead can be like Camille Herron (it's still insane she has the record for fastest 100 mile run by either a man or a woman). The bit on blood testing turning up a red flag for everyone if you dig around enough also reminded me of the thing in science how they now make people say their hypothesis ahead of time that I think you've written about somewhere in the past.
Thank you so much for the Q&A offer. I'd love to take you up on that! My co-worker is now reading the book, so she and I will confer and then get back to you.
Shoot, there's a lot of wisdom in this comment. I've already read it twice. ...Also, I've noticed with some elite runners I know, many now ditch even their watches some of the time, particularly on recovery days, but sometimes even other days. ...The blood testing point is a massive one, and not just in blood testing. Reminded me of this line from an article I wrote back at ProPublica: "At least one-third of adults over 50 will show meniscal tears if they get an MRI. But two-thirds of those will have no symptoms whatsoever." Trouble is, if the MRI shows a tear, even if it's inconsequential, many will end up in surgery. There are conceptually similar findings in a lot of areas. ...Anyway, I can't remember for sure if it was Christie's book, but if I could do college track again, I definitely wouldn't have done ice bath after workouts. It was kind of invigorating, and may speed short-term recovery, but now there's evidence showing that it blunts the inflammatory process that is actually part of the training response that you want. Whoops!
Haha thanks I appreciate that. I can't take credit for any wisdom since it was mainly regurgitating what she said, but I'll agree that I find Aschwanden to be a wise author. Having read the books back to back, it seemed similar to some themes in Discipline is Destiny, too (a favorite quote from Holiday: "The nearer a man comes to a calm mind, the closer he is to strength.” -Marcus Aurelius).
Glad I'm not the only ice apologist. I'd ice my knees and my elbow every day for 6 years after catching. I definitely got the placebo effect, but now I know what at cost! Speaking of which, I saw you mentioned The Expectation Effect in another comment. I thought that book was mind-blowing, and I'm surprised it wasn't more popular. Some of the examples of the placebo effect really seem too good to be true. I'll never get over the fact that a placebo works even when we know it's a placebo!
Thanks David. I look forward to hearing more about mindset toward aging and the expectation effect not only about aging, but about everything. I couldn’t agree more with the premise. Your writing is so timely and on target and helpful. Thanks!
I related strongly to this interview and the insights about change. Particularly about the resistance to change after an illness or surgery. It was helpful to hear that acceptance of new personal realities is an important part of the journey, and I can sure attest to the power of resisting.
The other thoughts I had when reading were about my Aunt Greta from Czechoslovakia . She would say to my mom who would worry about getting lost on a trip, “calm down Maya, it’s an adventure.” I find myself channeling her spirit when I’m in the midst of change. It’s an adventure!!
Hey Margit! Nice to hear from you. And a lovely comment, as always. This resonates with a lecture I was just watching yesterday, by the author of a book called The Expectation Effect. One of the most interesting parts was when he went through this growing body of research on how one's orientation toward stress — whether you see it as purely detrimental or as adaptive to help you when things are difficult — has clear physiological effects in the body. He showed similar research around aging, finding that one's mindset about whether it is just a process of diminishment or more one of change where some things compensate for others, has major health implications. It sounds very magical thinking when I put it like that, but the author is a New Scientist writer I've followed for awhile, and certainly not prone to accepting research findings unless they've been rigorously replicated. Anyway, I'm going to pick up his book, and I'm guessing there will be a lot that resonates with the "it's an adventure!" orientation;)
I found this interview absolutely fascinating, and I’ve found myself thinking about allostasis a lot over the last week. I think “order, disorder, reorder” is a great mindset, particularly following serious illness or injury.
It’s caused me years of frustration that I’ve not been able to ‘get back to the way I was’ following a serious illness, but this has helped me realise that I don’t want to be that person now, I want to be this iteration of me instead. It has echoes of “build back better” to me, which was used in disaster recovery before its appearance in US politics.
Thanks for the interview David, and the really interesting book Brad - I look forward to diving into it
Someone sent me this about "new beginnings" linked to new academic year, and I figured I'd leave it here. I'll probably check out the links about essentialism under the heading "Acknowledge Your Capacity for Change" https://news.columbia.edu/news/how-handle-new-beginnings-according-columbia-experts
Dear David - I live in Zimbabwe and find no easy way to upgrade to paid. But I read your newsletters always with interest. This morning I met up with a friend from school. We last saw each other in 1957. We were 13 years old. Today he is 79 and I am 78. I found him alone in his house working at a laptop. We exchanged histories briefly. He was a farmer. He recounted how he and his wife were ambushed by terrorists (some people prefer to call them guerillas). His car was shot up. He drove through the ambush on the rims of the vehicle and stayed alive. He moved on, went farming near what is now Harare. In 1983 when he was 60 his farm was 'jambanjad'. That means 'stolen by force' in our language. His home was surrounded by 50 odd thugs armed with AK 47's, and machetes. In less than 45 minutes he lost everything he ever owned. And I mean everything material. He moved on, found work as an agricultural consultant. Today he works with his son. His son owns a crocodile farm in Zambia. My friend works remotely, analysing data sent in by remote cameras and other apps, ensuring the safety of the crocodiles (some of which have in the past been stolen). He also does other administrative tasks. He was throughout our conversation cheerful as we remembered other old friends from yesteryear. He lost is wife 18 months ago to age related illness. My friend surely is both rugged and flexible. He's not the only one here in Zimbabwe who lost everything material when they lost their farms to thuggery. I know many of them. I was not a farmer so I was not one of them. But I did lose my savings to hyper-inflation. I still work. Once I was a policeman. I moved into IT. Now I am a coach and mentor. Retirement never comes to mind. I shall work till I cannot work and most of all I will keep learning something new every day, if not from your posts, then from others and from my day to day experiences. Keep well, keep going, keep experiencing.
David, first, I appreciate the sentiment regarding upgrading, but in that case please just continue subscribing for free! Much more importantly, this is a remarkable comment. Powerfully written and head-spinning to read. I think it's probably difficult for many of us to understand the level of rugged flexibility those experiences engender. I'm inspired by the way you finished this comment, and I'm going to share this with Brad.
Wow, David, thank you so much for sharing all of this. What an inspirational and extreme example of rugged flexibility your life is, and also the value of conceiving life as an ongoing path (versus a planned out road). Thank you again for sharing this. Much love, Brad.
Thank you, Dave, again for the great interview. I'll do my best to come back here and check in over the next week so if any folks have questions, don't hesitate to ask them! Appreciate y'all grappling with these ideas!
Thanks! ...I forgot to solicit questions. I've realized that it actually makes a huge difference to how many comments are left if I prompt people to leave them. Wouldn't have guessed!
Thanks for this David! I just listened to Brad's conversation with Brett McKay on the way into work earlier this week. The idea of allostasis has been hanging with me all week. Such a great way to think about stability in the midst of ever-changing surroundings. Gives me ship of Theseus vibes too.
The link to the pod for others who may find it interesting. A great listen!
https://www.artofmanliness.com/character/advice/podcast-924-how-to-develop-rugged-flexibility/
Long live the supple moose!
haha...the supple moose. I must have had Kelly Starrett on the brain. ...I like the invocation of ship of Theseus vibes. That's a thought experiment gift that just keeps giving, in my opinion.
Listened to Brad and Brett in conversation. Gave me a much better understanding of allostasis and homeostasis and the full concept of 'rugged flexibility'. Have you read 'Grit' by Angela Duckworth?
Thanks David, glad you enjoyed the interview. I haven't yet read 'Grit' by Angela Duckworth but it's been on the list. I've watched her TED talk about it and am familiar with the concept. Seems like maybe Grit is in the same constellation as Brad's ideas about rugged flexibility.
Thanks Josh
I shall listen to this with great interest
David,
Thank-you for taking the time to interview Brad and write this article.
Also, it was a cool surprise to see my name quoted above, in reference to the questions posed to Brad.
I wanted to add one more question - as, I had mentioned in one of your posts from last week.
So, my favourite example from the book is the story of Nils Van Der Poel. I wanted to know from Brad, that along with Nils, who are some of his favourite athletes to have exhibited rugged flexibility over the course of their careers and life? Like Chelsea Sodaro, had just mentioned in an Instagram post: https://www.instagram.com/p/CxEXigOv0yz/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Hi Matt -- Brad here! Thanks for wrestling with the book so thoughtfully. Shalane Flanagan immediately comes to mind (runner AND cookbook extraordinaire, and now coach). It's not so much that you need a wildly diversified and "balanced" way of spending your time, more so you just need some other rooms in your identity house, even if they are smaller than the main one!
Thanks for the reply Brad! And had heard you mention those two things on the Rich Roll podcast as well - and, made sure to take note.
Once again, you have contributed in adding to my teetering TBR stack.
All joking aside. This is very interesting.
Haha...well, it's a quick read. I also have a (or a few) teetering stacks, and I actually get a lot of value out of just flipping something open and reading a bit here and there, knowing I couldn't finish the stacks in several lifetimes. ...and that doesn't even count my virtual stack on Kindle. Although that's far less useful for grabbing and flipping.
--An external locus of control is akin to a “having” orientation. It makes you fragile. An internal locus of control is akin to a “being” orientation--
What about the "doing" orientation? Sometimes we're defined by what we have, others by how we think, but many others by what we do. Where do you think this "doing" orientation can fit, if at all?
Rafa, this is a very interesting point. I tend to agree with David's suggestion below, that the "doing" may often be a consequence of the "being." But I'm not sure...I have to think about this, but it brought to mind a book I was recently reading by philosopher Todd May, in which he talks about "narrative values." Basically, conceptual themes that run through the story of you, and that are large enough to have an "objectively attractive" component — such as steadfastness, curiosity, love ... things that show up in the hero's journey narratives of every culture. I'm sorry I can't condense this more clearly at the moment, but I've been thinking a lot about my own narrative values, and hoping that keeping them in mind will align my "doing" with how I want to be.
Hi Rafa
My thoughts: A 'doing' orientation is likely to be a consequence of having a 'being' orientation. It would be good to hear what Brad has to say on this
David,
Thanks for another excellent interview/article. Brad’s research and explanations are a bright light which are an aid in helping understand how people should view changes in life. So many people use the “good old days” as a base for their happiness instead of planning for and having reasonable expectations for the different stages of life.
I have seen this as I have retired and discuss how I’m approaching retirement with others who are retiring and approaching retirement. I’ve subscribed to the “diapers to diapers” theory and when I explain it to others it’s like a lightbulb going on. To me (retired at 65) it’s like this: When we are young we go from diapers to basically having fun growing up. This continues through college (or the end of high school) and then it’s into the “real world” where being on your own and working on your career brings stress, lots of responsibilities, etc etc.
Then you retire and many can’t figure out how to handle it. They become/remain inactive, get bored, get in ruts maybe go back to work, because that’s what they know. To me it’s time to have fun again. Exercise (to keep your physical and mental selves alert and capable), get together with friends/family, travel (if possible) etc. But it MUST come with the “reorder” concept. Time to have a blast and do it as long as you are able; before the return to “diapers”.
The concept of allostasis is brilliant and should be embraced by people throughout life. It just might help people be more happy and fulfilled instead of miserable/depressed.
Can’t wait to read this book and others by Brad.
Thanks!
Hi David, this is a fantastic interview, and I am also adding this book to my list, I’ll probably get to it within a year, but it seems really critical in terms of managing new realities, pursuing realistic goals of happiness, and successful aging.
The gulf between expectation and reality that can diminish happiness is incredibly important. Like when people try to adjust to post pandemic life. I think there are some important changes that need to be accepted and recalibrated in terms of happiness. For example, I am currently tightening up my behavior a bit with the current wave of Covid I’m seeing in the office, and nationally. I have also not gone back to cavalier 0% masking behavior, but rather protect myself situationally even though that represents a degradation of previous expectations and norms of social freedom.
Thanks again, I’ll stop dictating. Sorry if this comes out jumbled I listened to it while driving.
Hey Ryan, always appreciate your comments, particularly because you often leave specific examples from your own work or life that help me get a visceral understanding. ...I wonder if the so-called "silver tsunami" will change our perceptions of successful aging, for better or worse. My concern is that a lot of what people see will be via the filter of social media. Total aside: did you actually dictate this response?? If so, curious how that works for a Substack comment.
I'm glad the self-referential stuff is not too painful to read in the comments! I figure I can only add meaningful color to your comments using my own palette.
And I dictated just using the regular iPhone "speech to text" button, then at a stop light edited out the embarrassing auto-corrects. Half of my life is just winging it on the fly!
Again, great post, I forwarded it to 4 family members today.
Are you kidding, I love the referential stuff! One thing I like about my work is getting little insights or keyhole views into other peoples' lives and work. ...And I was wondering about how you got such clean transcription there, so that makes sense.
“We’re works in progress constantly claiming to be finished”
This bit grabbed my attention because I find myself time and time again telling folks who are younger than me that they don’t have to know what they want to be when they grow up, they don't have to find a passion, they just have to figure out what they are interested in now and work hard on getting better at it. How do we shift the way we talk to our young people about being adult? How do we show them that all of us are still figuring it out?
A really nice interview to read. Reading it felt just like reading The Practice of Groundedness (or anything else Stulberg says or writes), even skimming it makes me feel 10% less worried about all my neuroses. The idea of life being more x to y to z rather than x to y to x seems so obviously true after reading it that I'm slightly annoyed I hadn't thought of it before. I also think you both do a good job of adding concrete examples to demonstrate broader findings in research (e.g., yours with instagram filters and misaligned captions and his with the list of ways we change yet expect life to return to normal). Do you find that interviews are more in depth/interesting with someone you have a friendship or pre-existing relationship with?
Also, I know you posted this so long ago that you might not see this comment. I've been reading Aschwanden's Good to Go, and when I saw the bit on red wine in this interview I wanted to wait to respond until I finished the book. What a great read! It is so interesting to learn about recovery, but she also does a great job in explaining the scientific method and the differences of doing research well vs. poorly. I learned so much! Do you know if she's written anywhere about things we've learned in the past 4 years since the book came out? Or if there are any books you'd recommend that follow up with something similar?
Haha...nice connection! Christie's book is definitely where I learned about that. She does indeed do a great job making the scientific method part of the story. I will say, I know one aspect of the response to her book that I think limited its popularity was the idea that, well, she's just saying nothing works. I understand that reaction, but my feeling was that she's actually saying there are certain foundational things (like sleep) that work even better than you may think, and other sort of habits of mind about monitoring yourself that are important. On the one hand, it might be nice to hear some magic supplement is the thing. On the other, is that really the (more expensive) answer I'd want compared to what she says is useful? In any case, I just think the knee-jerk reaction to the book was that it's pessimistic, and I understand that, but don't really agree when I think about it more. ...I'll ask her if she has any updates, or recommendations. Actually, maybe I'll see if she wants to do a Q&A. If I did, if you'd want to contribute a specific question or two, happy to include them if I do it (and to credit you of course).
Yeah I think that's a more thoughtful response. I found it pretty freeing, honestly. Like with the supplements, she noted that a huge reasons athletes take them is essentially just FOMO, and now here's research saying that none of us need to feel FOMO. That was pretty amazing to hear! There were a bunch of examples of this: I don't need to worry about eating so quickly after a workout, I don't need to do painful recovery techniques, and don't need to obsess over my watch's recovery scores ("information is not the same of knowledge" is a terrific quote). It's pretty nice to know that we don't need to be the guy in the conclusion who has "the most expensive pee in California" and instead can be like Camille Herron (it's still insane she has the record for fastest 100 mile run by either a man or a woman). The bit on blood testing turning up a red flag for everyone if you dig around enough also reminded me of the thing in science how they now make people say their hypothesis ahead of time that I think you've written about somewhere in the past.
Thank you so much for the Q&A offer. I'd love to take you up on that! My co-worker is now reading the book, so she and I will confer and then get back to you.
Shoot, there's a lot of wisdom in this comment. I've already read it twice. ...Also, I've noticed with some elite runners I know, many now ditch even their watches some of the time, particularly on recovery days, but sometimes even other days. ...The blood testing point is a massive one, and not just in blood testing. Reminded me of this line from an article I wrote back at ProPublica: "At least one-third of adults over 50 will show meniscal tears if they get an MRI. But two-thirds of those will have no symptoms whatsoever." Trouble is, if the MRI shows a tear, even if it's inconsequential, many will end up in surgery. There are conceptually similar findings in a lot of areas. ...Anyway, I can't remember for sure if it was Christie's book, but if I could do college track again, I definitely wouldn't have done ice bath after workouts. It was kind of invigorating, and may speed short-term recovery, but now there's evidence showing that it blunts the inflammatory process that is actually part of the training response that you want. Whoops!
Haha thanks I appreciate that. I can't take credit for any wisdom since it was mainly regurgitating what she said, but I'll agree that I find Aschwanden to be a wise author. Having read the books back to back, it seemed similar to some themes in Discipline is Destiny, too (a favorite quote from Holiday: "The nearer a man comes to a calm mind, the closer he is to strength.” -Marcus Aurelius).
Glad I'm not the only ice apologist. I'd ice my knees and my elbow every day for 6 years after catching. I definitely got the placebo effect, but now I know what at cost! Speaking of which, I saw you mentioned The Expectation Effect in another comment. I thought that book was mind-blowing, and I'm surprised it wasn't more popular. Some of the examples of the placebo effect really seem too good to be true. I'll never get over the fact that a placebo works even when we know it's a placebo!
Thanks David. I look forward to hearing more about mindset toward aging and the expectation effect not only about aging, but about everything. I couldn’t agree more with the premise. Your writing is so timely and on target and helpful. Thanks!
Hi David,
I related strongly to this interview and the insights about change. Particularly about the resistance to change after an illness or surgery. It was helpful to hear that acceptance of new personal realities is an important part of the journey, and I can sure attest to the power of resisting.
The other thoughts I had when reading were about my Aunt Greta from Czechoslovakia . She would say to my mom who would worry about getting lost on a trip, “calm down Maya, it’s an adventure.” I find myself channeling her spirit when I’m in the midst of change. It’s an adventure!!
Hey Margit! Nice to hear from you. And a lovely comment, as always. This resonates with a lecture I was just watching yesterday, by the author of a book called The Expectation Effect. One of the most interesting parts was when he went through this growing body of research on how one's orientation toward stress — whether you see it as purely detrimental or as adaptive to help you when things are difficult — has clear physiological effects in the body. He showed similar research around aging, finding that one's mindset about whether it is just a process of diminishment or more one of change where some things compensate for others, has major health implications. It sounds very magical thinking when I put it like that, but the author is a New Scientist writer I've followed for awhile, and certainly not prone to accepting research findings unless they've been rigorously replicated. Anyway, I'm going to pick up his book, and I'm guessing there will be a lot that resonates with the "it's an adventure!" orientation;)
I found this interview absolutely fascinating, and I’ve found myself thinking about allostasis a lot over the last week. I think “order, disorder, reorder” is a great mindset, particularly following serious illness or injury.
It’s caused me years of frustration that I’ve not been able to ‘get back to the way I was’ following a serious illness, but this has helped me realise that I don’t want to be that person now, I want to be this iteration of me instead. It has echoes of “build back better” to me, which was used in disaster recovery before its appearance in US politics.
Thanks for the interview David, and the really interesting book Brad - I look forward to diving into it