Excellent contant David. I particularly liked the senate idea, where top management is not allowed. Putting people at the same level definite helps. No one is looking over their shoulders to parrot what ever the boss says. Yet another book atop my TBR pile.
A really helpful interview and framing here, thank you! I had a lot of thoughts related to the practice of medicine, and especially the teaching that goes on during our residencies. Some of the kind v wicked characteristics are ingrained in the situation, and therefore harder to improve. For example:
"rules might change (if there are any)" - in medicine we are always trying to learn from evidence-based trials, observational studies, and the authoritative meta-analysis. Rules change a lot, and for good reason. But telling a practitioner to stop prescribing something that was once thought beneficial but not proven harmful leads to a lot of internal struggle. The ever-changing and expanding rules of good practice are often more than any one individual can keep up with, too. People fall back on their experience, especially older physicians.
"patterns don’t just repeat" - another inherent wicked part of the job. Postpartum bleeding might be mild uterine atony (treatable) or disseminated intravascular coagulation (a catastrophe). Chest pain might be too much pickleball, or an ongoing heart attack. Stress and uncertainty are constant.
"feedback can be delayed or inaccurate" - good feedback in medicine only occurs during residency training or in academic centers, if then, and when you're out in the world practicing, you're pretty much on your own, cramming in patients and maximizing productivity for your new business-oriented overlords. I would love to sit back once a week and examine, reflect upon, and learn from my experiences, getting clinical feedback from my colleagues. Instead we are cloistered in one small examining tomb, err "room," after another, and rarely come up for air. Maybe we get a monthly report on quality-of-care metrics like how often patients reported that we washed our hands. Great.
"and work next year might not look like work last year." - queue pandemic. Feeling like a coal miner going into the mines each day, strapped into a face mask and exposed to risks of disability, disease, and not to mention patient skepticism/disdain of your tools (vaccination, treatments, etc). The only constants are unmanageable workloads and the threat of malpractice. Ouch to write that.
Sorry, quite a tangent here, and not totally what the author is talking about, but somewhat therapeutic for me to write anyway! I'm not burned out myself, but apparently the majority of doctors are right now, signaling a systemic disease in our collective body. A doctor a day is committing suicide. And with healthcare consuming 18.3% of our GDP, fixing this problem is beyond the ability of any small band of physicians with self-preservation and systematic-improvement in mind. The MBA's have ascended to the drivers' seats, and the buses are run by insurers, administrators, and pharma.
The excerpt about photographing taking away from an in-the-moment experience stuck out to me. In my attempt to not be black and white, I wonder where a middle ground is. Is it to take a minute or two to enjoy the experience prior to a picture? Or maybe a longer or shorter period? This may be answered in the studies you posted. I only read the abstracts. A brief aside: I once did a flyby of Europe with my brother where we went to tons of tourist locations. Because we were low on money and time, we hardly did more than take pictures of the outside of many buildings. Looking back, I'm saddened by the superficiality of how I experienced those historical landmarks. While I think taking pictures are a piece of the puzzle, I think learning the history and cultural context boosts appreciation as well. I would say this even applies to books. I recently read Moby-Dick (widely considered extremely boring), but I went into it with a bunch of research on Melville and whaling and other stuff, and I loved it. Not to go on too much of a tangent, but I think this can carry over to what you said about doing cardiac procedures without time to think. Running through experiences, books, etc., without time to think takes away from each one in my opinion. Anyways, thanks for the great post! It got me thinking!
David, would you say sports are a spectrum from "kind" to "wicked" learning environments? For example, would a target game like darts be kind and an invasion game like football be wicked? Would any sports fit into the wicked category or all they all considered kind because of the clarity of feedback?
David, individual experience varies so widely that we may accurately say that individual variation in limitations cause, well, "wide ranges" of associations and comprehensions.
What may seem vagaries, trite, moot, incomprehensible, to one SURELY evokes deeply salient emotions in some others.
Prosody is the brain's evolved method of , as you prefer, associational comprehension , or narrative.
Specificity*, desirable in language, seems endowed by the analytical isolation of word meanings.
But word meanings vary, among individuals, as I hope to have implied.
Consider how different languages may have cognates, false cognates, and synonyms that are never quite completely synonymous
I get corrected by native French speakers, and the vastly different Athabaskan or Siouxian does not even comprehend relationships/associations in ways completely mutual to you or I.
Something having to do with curiosity being more important than presenting a self, drove and drives me to seek learning environments where I am the least knowledgeable in "class."
That means that , while direct challenges may cause me anxiety, the absorbing pleasure of sensory encounter with the knowledgeable is more rewarding than any other social experience.
Being criticized, for example, caused that peculiar playful process occurring in dreams and what is poorly defined as illumination upon awakening, of recognition that stasis is illusion. I cannot thank you enough for the critical evaluations.
* (and specificity is also shaped, improved, through prosody, as in interpreting the meaning of words through their usage)
Especially poignant to me is the concept of kind versus wicked learning environments. In the former, emotion has relatively little affect on rational thinking. Wicked learning environments especially related to trauma, have a disproportionately large enduring effect that can cloud reasonable judgement indefinitely. Another good article.
The intention was merely to add information about the ubiquity of creative response that occurs in individuals participating in skilled activities.
Fosbury DID escape the excessive conservative bent of rules-based activities; One would never desire that any of us would not explore outside of limits (even I have numerous injuries from such exploration).
Informed speculation, of course differs enormously from uninformed speculation, or unskilled imagination.
THERE is a subject for mental exploration!
(I am not at all sure that it is correct to presume critique, rather than attempt to add to the information. Newton's "shoulders of giants" refers to how human knowledge appears to increase: we are inspired by others, and even critique is a fundamental and necessary process through which learning and advancement occur.
Thanks for the initial article! Fosbury was, due to his innovative mind, a light in track and field.
The fiberglass pole vault tech , which may have occurred during the same period changed the style and technique, even opening the way for females, with their naturally reduced upper body strength, to develop at perhaps a higher ratio of altitude gain.
Great discussion, thanks! Interesting how, even in a kinder environment like medical procedures, reflection and articulation are critical for learning from experience. I saw this effect with managers and I was lucky to discover how a simple interview made them articulate and get a better grasp on something they learned a while ago.
Btw, can you please share which study you were referring to? Thanks a lot!
I loved this one. Thanks, David. So much of this reminded me of Range that I was surprised to see that this book came out after. First, I love the use of analogies (mixing strategies like the stock market, swimming in the ocean, or even the Tony Robbins example). Also, your note on social media/the internet being designed to direct your attention reminded me of a similar point Russ Roberts made about social media making it hard to "want what we want to want." I thought that was such a great way to put it.
Anyway, a question. Thanks for trying to elicit specific, science-based recommendations for readers. The authors mentioned a good one, but I noticed you said the book has a lot. Are there any others that stuck out to you that you'd like to share?
Lastly, this is random, but I find myself thinking much more about your effort you put in as an interviewer now. There were a few moments where I chuckled because you asked a question, didn't get an answer you quite liked, and then followed up with a bit more explanation to make sure the reader would understand. I thought it demonstrated your preparation, and I really appreciated it!
1. On speculation: Informed speculation differs so profoundly from uninformed (let's call it for the moment, "Dunning-Kreuger" speculation) as to be unrelated to valid review. Thus the word speculation in the discussion must be modified to reflect at least this abyssal gulf.
2. The conversation unfortunately degraded into the usual common hierarchical trap of attempting to be relevant by appeal to employee evaluation/hiring decisions. As we know, so-called "crystallized intelligence", the social product of adapting the essentially anecdotal individual experience, differs from the more adaptive use of logic and testing of modifiable tentative solution[s], commonly referred to as " fluid intelligence. The former is long-term memory, the latter involves ability to more widely abstract through using present cues to create effective and novel response to novel experience, evaluation, response.
Thus a massive gap exists between speculation and valid formation of falsifiable - testable - hypothesis, leading to accurate "knowledge."
The last is encased in quotation marks due to the absolute necessity to question either accepted reality (see physics and any concept of reality proposed and accepted ) or social niche theory, wherein our vulnerability to delusions arise from the eagerness of an obligate social animal to modify the (social) self to fit into desired ingroup[s].
Our susceptibility to ignore reality due to desire to fit into and attain social "heights" has been consistently proven, since the Asch and Milgram experiments of 70 years past, although evident for as long as social record existed.
(i look forward to belatedly reading Soyer/Hogarth's Myth of Experience, though it will become as filled with margin notes as any scribbled-up text or assertion since adolescence.
Our experience as animals does not differ substantially from that of any other brain, evaluating utility of familiar versus adventure into novel environments and systems.
Brains, after all, have only such utility as allows reasonably effective prediction of likelihood of sufficient reward -which, of course, is the reason that at least one brain in the interview, leapt toward profitability of "hiring" evaluation.
Good luck on selling; my experience evaluating "Master's" theses written by business and "leadership" aspirants, allows this crystalline, if acerbic observation: Those oriented toward sociofinancial "dominance" -- and my use of quotation marks indicate distaste at their delusory intent and consequent desire to strike them from functional language -- will, in their Machiavellian dissimulations, make them a profitable cohort to milk for profit.
I would urge those who tentatively toward manipulative utility for "hiring", to seek a wider view of trait differences than competitive rejection.
Each individual organism ever extant comprises an unigue and agilely changing life. Neither genes nor momentary or persistent epigenetic stasis, define destiny. Learning from experience includes mistakes and variations impossible to foresee.)
I learned very clearly how photographing steals the actual experience when I spent some time photographing exciting races at large track meets. After the winners finished I would have to find the closest bystander and ask them to tell me what happened in the race. You see the whole thing but comprehend so little. Taught me to photograph my children only rarely.
Excellent contant David. I particularly liked the senate idea, where top management is not allowed. Putting people at the same level definite helps. No one is looking over their shoulders to parrot what ever the boss says. Yet another book atop my TBR pile.
A really helpful interview and framing here, thank you! I had a lot of thoughts related to the practice of medicine, and especially the teaching that goes on during our residencies. Some of the kind v wicked characteristics are ingrained in the situation, and therefore harder to improve. For example:
"rules might change (if there are any)" - in medicine we are always trying to learn from evidence-based trials, observational studies, and the authoritative meta-analysis. Rules change a lot, and for good reason. But telling a practitioner to stop prescribing something that was once thought beneficial but not proven harmful leads to a lot of internal struggle. The ever-changing and expanding rules of good practice are often more than any one individual can keep up with, too. People fall back on their experience, especially older physicians.
"patterns don’t just repeat" - another inherent wicked part of the job. Postpartum bleeding might be mild uterine atony (treatable) or disseminated intravascular coagulation (a catastrophe). Chest pain might be too much pickleball, or an ongoing heart attack. Stress and uncertainty are constant.
"feedback can be delayed or inaccurate" - good feedback in medicine only occurs during residency training or in academic centers, if then, and when you're out in the world practicing, you're pretty much on your own, cramming in patients and maximizing productivity for your new business-oriented overlords. I would love to sit back once a week and examine, reflect upon, and learn from my experiences, getting clinical feedback from my colleagues. Instead we are cloistered in one small examining tomb, err "room," after another, and rarely come up for air. Maybe we get a monthly report on quality-of-care metrics like how often patients reported that we washed our hands. Great.
"and work next year might not look like work last year." - queue pandemic. Feeling like a coal miner going into the mines each day, strapped into a face mask and exposed to risks of disability, disease, and not to mention patient skepticism/disdain of your tools (vaccination, treatments, etc). The only constants are unmanageable workloads and the threat of malpractice. Ouch to write that.
Sorry, quite a tangent here, and not totally what the author is talking about, but somewhat therapeutic for me to write anyway! I'm not burned out myself, but apparently the majority of doctors are right now, signaling a systemic disease in our collective body. A doctor a day is committing suicide. And with healthcare consuming 18.3% of our GDP, fixing this problem is beyond the ability of any small band of physicians with self-preservation and systematic-improvement in mind. The MBA's have ascended to the drivers' seats, and the buses are run by insurers, administrators, and pharma.
The excerpt about photographing taking away from an in-the-moment experience stuck out to me. In my attempt to not be black and white, I wonder where a middle ground is. Is it to take a minute or two to enjoy the experience prior to a picture? Or maybe a longer or shorter period? This may be answered in the studies you posted. I only read the abstracts. A brief aside: I once did a flyby of Europe with my brother where we went to tons of tourist locations. Because we were low on money and time, we hardly did more than take pictures of the outside of many buildings. Looking back, I'm saddened by the superficiality of how I experienced those historical landmarks. While I think taking pictures are a piece of the puzzle, I think learning the history and cultural context boosts appreciation as well. I would say this even applies to books. I recently read Moby-Dick (widely considered extremely boring), but I went into it with a bunch of research on Melville and whaling and other stuff, and I loved it. Not to go on too much of a tangent, but I think this can carry over to what you said about doing cardiac procedures without time to think. Running through experiences, books, etc., without time to think takes away from each one in my opinion. Anyways, thanks for the great post! It got me thinking!
David, would you say sports are a spectrum from "kind" to "wicked" learning environments? For example, would a target game like darts be kind and an invasion game like football be wicked? Would any sports fit into the wicked category or all they all considered kind because of the clarity of feedback?
David, individual experience varies so widely that we may accurately say that individual variation in limitations cause, well, "wide ranges" of associations and comprehensions.
What may seem vagaries, trite, moot, incomprehensible, to one SURELY evokes deeply salient emotions in some others.
Prosody is the brain's evolved method of , as you prefer, associational comprehension , or narrative.
Specificity*, desirable in language, seems endowed by the analytical isolation of word meanings.
But word meanings vary, among individuals, as I hope to have implied.
Consider how different languages may have cognates, false cognates, and synonyms that are never quite completely synonymous
I get corrected by native French speakers, and the vastly different Athabaskan or Siouxian does not even comprehend relationships/associations in ways completely mutual to you or I.
Something having to do with curiosity being more important than presenting a self, drove and drives me to seek learning environments where I am the least knowledgeable in "class."
That means that , while direct challenges may cause me anxiety, the absorbing pleasure of sensory encounter with the knowledgeable is more rewarding than any other social experience.
Being criticized, for example, caused that peculiar playful process occurring in dreams and what is poorly defined as illumination upon awakening, of recognition that stasis is illusion. I cannot thank you enough for the critical evaluations.
* (and specificity is also shaped, improved, through prosody, as in interpreting the meaning of words through their usage)
Especially poignant to me is the concept of kind versus wicked learning environments. In the former, emotion has relatively little affect on rational thinking. Wicked learning environments especially related to trauma, have a disproportionately large enduring effect that can cloud reasonable judgement indefinitely. Another good article.
The intention was merely to add information about the ubiquity of creative response that occurs in individuals participating in skilled activities.
Fosbury DID escape the excessive conservative bent of rules-based activities; One would never desire that any of us would not explore outside of limits (even I have numerous injuries from such exploration).
Informed speculation, of course differs enormously from uninformed speculation, or unskilled imagination.
THERE is a subject for mental exploration!
(I am not at all sure that it is correct to presume critique, rather than attempt to add to the information. Newton's "shoulders of giants" refers to how human knowledge appears to increase: we are inspired by others, and even critique is a fundamental and necessary process through which learning and advancement occur.
Thanks for the initial article! Fosbury was, due to his innovative mind, a light in track and field.
The fiberglass pole vault tech , which may have occurred during the same period changed the style and technique, even opening the way for females, with their naturally reduced upper body strength, to develop at perhaps a higher ratio of altitude gain.
Great discussion, thanks! Interesting how, even in a kinder environment like medical procedures, reflection and articulation are critical for learning from experience. I saw this effect with managers and I was lucky to discover how a simple interview made them articulate and get a better grasp on something they learned a while ago.
Btw, can you please share which study you were referring to? Thanks a lot!
I loved this one. Thanks, David. So much of this reminded me of Range that I was surprised to see that this book came out after. First, I love the use of analogies (mixing strategies like the stock market, swimming in the ocean, or even the Tony Robbins example). Also, your note on social media/the internet being designed to direct your attention reminded me of a similar point Russ Roberts made about social media making it hard to "want what we want to want." I thought that was such a great way to put it.
Anyway, a question. Thanks for trying to elicit specific, science-based recommendations for readers. The authors mentioned a good one, but I noticed you said the book has a lot. Are there any others that stuck out to you that you'd like to share?
Lastly, this is random, but I find myself thinking much more about your effort you put in as an interviewer now. There were a few moments where I chuckled because you asked a question, didn't get an answer you quite liked, and then followed up with a bit more explanation to make sure the reader would understand. I thought it demonstrated your preparation, and I really appreciated it!
An observation or two:
1. On speculation: Informed speculation differs so profoundly from uninformed (let's call it for the moment, "Dunning-Kreuger" speculation) as to be unrelated to valid review. Thus the word speculation in the discussion must be modified to reflect at least this abyssal gulf.
2. The conversation unfortunately degraded into the usual common hierarchical trap of attempting to be relevant by appeal to employee evaluation/hiring decisions. As we know, so-called "crystallized intelligence", the social product of adapting the essentially anecdotal individual experience, differs from the more adaptive use of logic and testing of modifiable tentative solution[s], commonly referred to as " fluid intelligence. The former is long-term memory, the latter involves ability to more widely abstract through using present cues to create effective and novel response to novel experience, evaluation, response.
Thus a massive gap exists between speculation and valid formation of falsifiable - testable - hypothesis, leading to accurate "knowledge."
The last is encased in quotation marks due to the absolute necessity to question either accepted reality (see physics and any concept of reality proposed and accepted ) or social niche theory, wherein our vulnerability to delusions arise from the eagerness of an obligate social animal to modify the (social) self to fit into desired ingroup[s].
Our susceptibility to ignore reality due to desire to fit into and attain social "heights" has been consistently proven, since the Asch and Milgram experiments of 70 years past, although evident for as long as social record existed.
(i look forward to belatedly reading Soyer/Hogarth's Myth of Experience, though it will become as filled with margin notes as any scribbled-up text or assertion since adolescence.
Our experience as animals does not differ substantially from that of any other brain, evaluating utility of familiar versus adventure into novel environments and systems.
Brains, after all, have only such utility as allows reasonably effective prediction of likelihood of sufficient reward -which, of course, is the reason that at least one brain in the interview, leapt toward profitability of "hiring" evaluation.
Good luck on selling; my experience evaluating "Master's" theses written by business and "leadership" aspirants, allows this crystalline, if acerbic observation: Those oriented toward sociofinancial "dominance" -- and my use of quotation marks indicate distaste at their delusory intent and consequent desire to strike them from functional language -- will, in their Machiavellian dissimulations, make them a profitable cohort to milk for profit.
I would urge those who tentatively toward manipulative utility for "hiring", to seek a wider view of trait differences than competitive rejection.
Each individual organism ever extant comprises an unigue and agilely changing life. Neither genes nor momentary or persistent epigenetic stasis, define destiny. Learning from experience includes mistakes and variations impossible to foresee.)
I learned very clearly how photographing steals the actual experience when I spent some time photographing exciting races at large track meets. After the winners finished I would have to find the closest bystander and ask them to tell me what happened in the race. You see the whole thing but comprehend so little. Taught me to photograph my children only rarely.