Your point about sampling widely before specializing feels increasingly radical in a world that demands early commitment. I wonder if we're creating a false dichotomy though. maybe the real insight is that excellence emerges from cycles of expansion and contraction. not choosing one or the other. The pattern I'm seeing is that people who make meaningful contributions often have this accordion rhythm in their development. they stretch wide. then compress deep. then stretch again. How do we build institutions that honor this natural oscillation instead of forcing premature optimization?
I’ve never heard anyone articulate that before, but agree completely about the pattern. Very interesting question on how to help institutions accommodate this; I’ve often seen people leave for the wide phase and then recommit (sometimes to a different institution) when they’re going deep again.
Great IV! And I also love this model / pattern. My model is an hourglass: huge funnel, then focus, then expansion. You can size both apertures to the task and time. PS you can then invert to test any / all outcomes.
Maybe not so radical—love the accordion metaphor...terrific take: thank you! You're not alone, believe me.
re institutional constraint: working in tiny team bootstrapping non-AI software—derived from logic of human story and 10,000+ live hours with librarians trying to better their co-creative skills and decades as investigative journalist doing interviews—to help org.s understand their own decision architecture, for precisely this
Our due diligence suggests the real scarcity isn't time (the 'productivity' trap) or cash (the 'can't afford change' trap)...it's trust, trust in the astonishing human capacity to seek out and cultivate the non-obvious—and personalize that discovery...but that hardly ever happens (we have the data) if folks don't feel seen and heard. Hence our attempt at a new logic of co-creativity. We shall see.
Much inspired by a profound book: https://a.co/d/e0WbJio (YOUR BRAIN ON ART, by two amazing co-authors, Johns Hopkins neuroscientist and xGoogle), which takes on the neuroscience behind/beneath much of what Brad/David discuss...hope this helps.
I just want to say that this discussion thread may well be more interesting than my post, so thanks to all of you! And looks like I have a new book for the list.
You've prompted a great discussion here, so I don't have much to add, just want to thank you for this contribution. And the "accordion" does ring true to me based on some of the "explore/exploit" research, and certainly the reporting on inventors at 3M I did for Range. The most successful creators would go deep, then come up and add breadth, then deep, and so on...
This converses a lot with what Zorana Ivcevic, a creativity expert, talks about. A creative process is more than just a "think". It's complex, nuanced and it's an emotional process. It involves a whole range of emotions. And it's not binary, this or that but a thing that has its own nuances, its ebb and flow. Why? Because we humans ebb and flow. This is where the concept of tuning comes to mind, because we find hopefully places where we flow together, but we also support each other where some ebb and some others can flow. It's not perfect but we learn to attune to one another.
Excellence then transforms into a concept that involves more listening and less producing. More than figuring out together than a given response.
And making leaders the tuning fork that can help us find our "own oscillation" and are aware of its importance, will drive us towards better organizations that connect to creativity, excellence and also well-being of their collaborators, instead of draining their energy, creativity and stop working in silos.
This is a terrific piece. I love "own your seat." I used to make a similar analogy about childbirth. If someone put you 100 feet below the summit of Everest and told you to climb it you'd be terrified. If you'd prepared all your life to be in that spot you'd be exhilarated.
I love the Publix anecdote! That same thing happens to me if I'm working on a piece ..my subconscious brain is doing its magic and the best lines bubble up to my conscious surface during quiet times while I'm actively disengaged - while I'm doing the dishes, getting into bed, driving with no music on.
When you're not as goal directed, it activate's the brain's "default mode network," which can help make new connections. Why I used to always have a scrap of a paper and a pen stuffed in my running shorts;)
So much to ponder!! Thanks as always. For me the piece on how stress is framed by the brain confirmed and added to my understanding of how our internal experience defines our perception of how stressful it actually is. I just wrote a bit about that. If we frame a challenge as an adventure and a chance to learn, it’s instantly less stressful. Or usually so, given where we are internally. The thing though about internal experiences is that they’re so bloody hard to control!!
I have been listening to Brad's book from many colleague and friends.
The topic of excellence I believe, is also cultural.
Specially in organizations, we've been feeding this idea of high performance or excellence in organizations which looks more like a assortment of people in hamster's wheels more than collective performance.
I've been recently using the idea of quintessence instead of excellence, because it incorporates the concept of emergence which is used in systems thinking. The interdependence that creates more than the sum of its parts. You create a new something.
I really enjoyed this conversation. Specially I resonated with the idea of satisfaction and stress. And I can relate to that feeling, as I'm trying (trying, in big caps) to write a book and it's been so hard. And I can name so many excuses for not doing it (work, being a parent, not having enough time) but in the end, I need to get into it, into the messy middle and going ahead and doing it. You both inspire me and seeing that there's no exact or perfect way of doing it. You just gotta go through it by yourself.
Loved this book. I relate to the part of this interview talking about satisfaction versus happiness. I had a therapist years ago point out I was constantly using achievement-based “excellence” as my North Star. She asked if I ever felt…content. At the time, the answer was a clear no and that was causing a lot of issues. If more people strived for being content/satisfied we’d open up a lot more space for (drum roll) excellence! At least according to Brad’s definition. Thanks for the great interview 👍
So glad you picked these out. There was so much in the interview I had to leave behind just for length, but glad I included these. I feel that same way about the identity house. I've been a lot more resilient when I have more than one room.
Your point about sampling widely before specializing feels increasingly radical in a world that demands early commitment. I wonder if we're creating a false dichotomy though. maybe the real insight is that excellence emerges from cycles of expansion and contraction. not choosing one or the other. The pattern I'm seeing is that people who make meaningful contributions often have this accordion rhythm in their development. they stretch wide. then compress deep. then stretch again. How do we build institutions that honor this natural oscillation instead of forcing premature optimization?
I’ve never heard anyone articulate that before, but agree completely about the pattern. Very interesting question on how to help institutions accommodate this; I’ve often seen people leave for the wide phase and then recommit (sometimes to a different institution) when they’re going deep again.
Great IV! And I also love this model / pattern. My model is an hourglass: huge funnel, then focus, then expansion. You can size both apertures to the task and time. PS you can then invert to test any / all outcomes.
Maybe not so radical—love the accordion metaphor...terrific take: thank you! You're not alone, believe me.
re institutional constraint: working in tiny team bootstrapping non-AI software—derived from logic of human story and 10,000+ live hours with librarians trying to better their co-creative skills and decades as investigative journalist doing interviews—to help org.s understand their own decision architecture, for precisely this
Our due diligence suggests the real scarcity isn't time (the 'productivity' trap) or cash (the 'can't afford change' trap)...it's trust, trust in the astonishing human capacity to seek out and cultivate the non-obvious—and personalize that discovery...but that hardly ever happens (we have the data) if folks don't feel seen and heard. Hence our attempt at a new logic of co-creativity. We shall see.
Much inspired by a profound book: https://a.co/d/e0WbJio (YOUR BRAIN ON ART, by two amazing co-authors, Johns Hopkins neuroscientist and xGoogle), which takes on the neuroscience behind/beneath much of what Brad/David discuss...hope this helps.
I just want to say that this discussion thread may well be more interesting than my post, so thanks to all of you! And looks like I have a new book for the list.
You've prompted a great discussion here, so I don't have much to add, just want to thank you for this contribution. And the "accordion" does ring true to me based on some of the "explore/exploit" research, and certainly the reporting on inventors at 3M I did for Range. The most successful creators would go deep, then come up and add breadth, then deep, and so on...
This converses a lot with what Zorana Ivcevic, a creativity expert, talks about. A creative process is more than just a "think". It's complex, nuanced and it's an emotional process. It involves a whole range of emotions. And it's not binary, this or that but a thing that has its own nuances, its ebb and flow. Why? Because we humans ebb and flow. This is where the concept of tuning comes to mind, because we find hopefully places where we flow together, but we also support each other where some ebb and some others can flow. It's not perfect but we learn to attune to one another.
Excellence then transforms into a concept that involves more listening and less producing. More than figuring out together than a given response.
And making leaders the tuning fork that can help us find our "own oscillation" and are aware of its importance, will drive us towards better organizations that connect to creativity, excellence and also well-being of their collaborators, instead of draining their energy, creativity and stop working in silos.
This is a terrific piece. I love "own your seat." I used to make a similar analogy about childbirth. If someone put you 100 feet below the summit of Everest and told you to climb it you'd be terrified. If you'd prepared all your life to be in that spot you'd be exhilarated.
This is a more interesting example than the bench press one. Thanks Ann!
Great interview! I especially like the bit about satisfaction vs happiness which many of us would do well to remember.
Thanks Danielle! Especially meaningful coming from a great interviewer.
You’re too kind!
Owning you seat is a great phrase and idea. I had it happen to me just recently.
I loved that, and would be glad to hear your example if you're willing to share. Thanks for reading, Peter.
Thanks so much, Dave, for this wonderful conversation and write up. It was so much fun!
You now have the most appearances in this newsletter of anyone but me. The prestige of this will certainly cause you to faint!
Great interview. I loved the discussion on satisfaction vs. happiness.
Thanks for reading Kevin!
I love the Publix anecdote! That same thing happens to me if I'm working on a piece ..my subconscious brain is doing its magic and the best lines bubble up to my conscious surface during quiet times while I'm actively disengaged - while I'm doing the dishes, getting into bed, driving with no music on.
When you're not as goal directed, it activate's the brain's "default mode network," which can help make new connections. Why I used to always have a scrap of a paper and a pen stuffed in my running shorts;)
Really great interview! Thanks for posting!
Thanks for reading K.G.!
So much to ponder!! Thanks as always. For me the piece on how stress is framed by the brain confirmed and added to my understanding of how our internal experience defines our perception of how stressful it actually is. I just wrote a bit about that. If we frame a challenge as an adventure and a chance to learn, it’s instantly less stressful. Or usually so, given where we are internally. The thing though about internal experiences is that they’re so bloody hard to control!!
Margit! Thanks, as always, for reading and leaving wonderful comments. If the writing you mention is public, I'd love a link.
great stuff. subbed. thank you.
Glad to have you here Brendan!
Really excited for this book, so important in the world today. And love the idea of an identity house.
I love that too, and am definitely going to borrow it;)
David, what was the word?
The ideal clickbait but no link. 😀
Haha... drum roll... "chthonic." And right away I thought I got it wrong but wasn't sure.
Awesome interview!
Thanks for reading Nathaniel!
Great post.
I have been listening to Brad's book from many colleague and friends.
The topic of excellence I believe, is also cultural.
Specially in organizations, we've been feeding this idea of high performance or excellence in organizations which looks more like a assortment of people in hamster's wheels more than collective performance.
I've been recently using the idea of quintessence instead of excellence, because it incorporates the concept of emergence which is used in systems thinking. The interdependence that creates more than the sum of its parts. You create a new something.
I really enjoyed this conversation. Specially I resonated with the idea of satisfaction and stress. And I can relate to that feeling, as I'm trying (trying, in big caps) to write a book and it's been so hard. And I can name so many excuses for not doing it (work, being a parent, not having enough time) but in the end, I need to get into it, into the messy middle and going ahead and doing it. You both inspire me and seeing that there's no exact or perfect way of doing it. You just gotta go through it by yourself.
Loved this book. I relate to the part of this interview talking about satisfaction versus happiness. I had a therapist years ago point out I was constantly using achievement-based “excellence” as my North Star. She asked if I ever felt…content. At the time, the answer was a clear no and that was causing a lot of issues. If more people strived for being content/satisfied we’d open up a lot more space for (drum roll) excellence! At least according to Brad’s definition. Thanks for the great interview 👍
So glad you picked these out. There was so much in the interview I had to leave behind just for length, but glad I included these. I feel that same way about the identity house. I've been a lot more resilient when I have more than one room.