Pitching Collective Purpose

Finding others' superpowers is a superpower; a Q&A with Peter Sims

Anyone who has been reading this newsletter for a while will know my affinity for former Girl Scouts CEO Frances Hesselbein. Before Hesselbein passed away two years ago (at 107 and still working), I spent time with her while reporting Range, and then just for my own personal edification, and because she had a tendency naturally to draw people into her orbit and then get them interested in her interests. That quality fascinated me about her. Even more than her modernization of Girl Scouts, or the behemoth cookie business she built, I was blown away that she added 130,000 new volunteers to the organization. That’s 130,000 people that she paid in a sense of mission. 

I was thinking about Frances and her ability to draw people to a mission as I read a new book, Black Sheep: The Quest to Be Human in an Inhuman Time, by Peter Sims. 

The book opens with Sims describing his early career, working in London at a venture capital firm, where he was very successful, and, before long, very miserable. While he liked many of the people he worked with, he also details the mix of big egos, small ethical compasses, and general lack of a feeling of purpose that led to his disillusionment. After a few years, he quit, with no idea what to do next. 

Much of the rest of the book deals with Sims’s journey to figure out what’s next, and then what’s next after that. Very often, the answer arrives when he approaches someone he finds interesting — like the former CEO of Medtronic after a lecture; or the CEO of Pixar in a parking lot after a tour — and they end up getting to know one another, and then Sims pitches a collaboration. (Sims coauthored a book with Medtronic CEO Bill George, and collaborated on projects with Pixar CEO Ed Catmull, including advising innovation projects at Google.) 

I know Peter, and he has that ability to energize people around him by organizing them for a common project. So I invited him to discuss a part of the book where his superpower of connecting people and activating those around him is on display. Below is our conversation. 

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David Epstein: So Peter, this is going to sound strange, but I was telling my wife that your ability to draw people in to a common mission reminds me of two people: Frances Hesselbein, the longtime CEO of the Girl Scouts, and then also the main character in this Japanese comic series One Piece (which happens to be the best selling comic series in history). In One Piece, a bunch of the characters have miraculous powers, and the main guy does too, but — as one of his adversaries notes — he also has the greatest superpower of all: his enthusiasm for his mission turns everyone around him into an ally in his quest. 

In that vein, I want to ask you about the part of the book that focuses on your role in the birth of Giving Tuesday. For starters, can you describe Giving Tuesday for those who aren’t familiar? 

Peter Sims: Giving Tuesday is now a global day of giving, the Tuesday after Thanksgiving, in which nonprofits use social media with the #GivingTuesday hashtag to raise funds. The key problem it solved was that nonprofits weren’t that familiar with how to use social media to raise micro donations, and Giving Tuesday gave them an excuse and tools. The movement is now in over 100 countries and has helped nonprofits raise over $10 billion in its first decade. 

DE: In this part of the book, you’re describing basically a party for Black Sheep (now BLK SHP), the social network that you were building — not online, but by getting interesting people from disparate fields together in person. And I love this scene because you have, like, Questlove as the DJ, and there are artists, musicians, teachers, and all sorts of different people, including Busta Rhymes, who shows up even though he wasn’t invited. And yet, the star of the party, and the chapter, is one Henry Timms, middle manager from the 92nd Street Y. Henry felt that since Black Friday and Cyber Monday seem to work, why not try Giving Tuesday as a sort of holiday for charitable donations.

In retrospect, this was a great idea. But I can certainly see how it could come off as the kind of thing where someone would say: “Wouldn’t it be cool if…” but that wouldn’t be taken seriously. Obviously it appealed to you. But — to go to your superpower — how did you manage to get all these other people and organizations involved with it?

PS: Henry Timms deserves most of the credit: the vision and idea were simple, intuitive, and timely. Aaron Sherinian, then with the UN Foundation, another founding partner, pitched me on the idea of joining the Giving Tuesday founding team when I was in a green room before a speech in Brazil. It immediately resonated deeply, so we joined in. We often hear stories of ideas that had many naysayers at first. Giving Tuesday found a lot of supporting partners quickly, but there were naysayers. “A global day of giving?” I was asked when I spent an afternoon at the White House trying to convince a key official there to get the White House to endorse the idea in the first year. This official was especially skeptical about Henry, who was not a known figure at that time. Because I had authored a couple of books by then, I ended up writing an opinion piece in Bloomberg arguing that Giving Tuesday was the most innovative social impact idea of the year. The next day, the White House endorsed us, and what I ultimately learned about movement building is that it’s much like entrepreneurship – a momentum game that thrives on one small victory after another.  

DE: Not to belabor the point…or actually, I do want to belabor the point. A big part of the success of Giving Tuesday was clearly that — for both the people organizing it and the people making donations — collective action is thrilling. And there’s a ton of capacity and desire to give that is unleashed if people feel like they’re in it together. You, like my hero Frances Hesselbein, have obviously been successful at helping people feel that they are in something together. This might sound trite, but can you explain some of your approach to doing that?

PS: Wow, that’s a good question that forces me to reflect a bit. I’ve met many people who Frances Hesselbein touched. When it comes to leadership and getting things done, it’s all about people. And our creativity thrives upon having lots of inputs, and I’ve always been voraciously curious and an autodidact. 

After business school, I developed a mental model for my career and life that is very different from taking a linear path. My goal was to build a platform for creativity and entrepreneurship, working with people I really enjoyed, that might have a significant positive impact for society. So, I started with my core values and then eventually built a brand around that value system – now called “BLK SHP,” naturally with no vowels. 

Over a decade, we constantly bet on people, companies, and ventures that fit within the BLK SHP value system. We created a publishing business and platform, a membership and advisory company with BLK SHP senior leaders pushing for change inside Fortune 500 companies, and BLK SHP Ventures, an investment company with a strong social purpose. In fact, Pixar founder Ed Catmull is one of the partners in Ventures. Giving Tuesday was the first venture we helped start out of the BLK SHP Foundation. 

The mindset all started with a basic question I began to ask after grad school. When I met someone, if it felt generative, I would ask: is this a person I might co-conspire with some day? Those bets can become very valuable, including for living a rewarding life. 

DE: This made me think of another person I admire, Jayshree Seth, who I interviewed for Range. Jayshree is an engineer and inventor at 3M, and in 2020 she earned the highest achievement award from the Society of Women Engineers. She described her work process to me as “mosaic building,” where she would basically go around and interview her colleagues to build a picture of an important project. Through that process she’d construct a narrative that allowed her to explain to a bunch of those people why the project was important and why they should work on it. I think that’s pretty darn cool; she’d mine the knowledge and interests of others to build a pitch for collective importance. And it drew people to the work. 

Does that resonate with your approach? There are so many parts in the book where you connect with someone — Ed Catmull, or architect Frank Gehry — and you’re able to engage them in actual projects. And I wonder if that’s because you seem to approach people via what they are interested in, or a curiosity about their work and interests, and then eventually once you understand it you pitch them on some collective purpose. Am I on or off target here?

PS: You’re asking really insightful questions. My initial motivation is curiosity. I’m not a transactional person, and I try to avoid those types of interactions as much as possible. When I met Ed, I was very drawn to Pixar’s culture, which he architected, and I wanted to create a culture like it with BLK SHP. The term “black sheep” actually came from inside Pixar. I ended up hearing that he was giving a lecture at Stanford’s computer science school, so I went to the lecture and met him briefly afterward, but we didn’t become friends until several years later when we ran into each other on the street in San Francisco, and realized we went to the same gym. 

It’s important to understand that people in positions like Frank Gehry or Ed steer very clear of transactional interactions. I got to know a lot of CEOs while working on [my book] True North, and people are pitching them and asking for things all the time. So, because I wanted to learn from people like Ed, I spent a lot of time thinking about what I could contribute to him. At first, I didn’t think I could contribute much of anything to a living legend like Ed, but gradually I discovered what I brought to the table. At first it was energy, then I realized I had some useful insights to share, then that I could be a good listener, then that I could help him think about his career. When Ed retired from Pixar, he joined Google X as an advisor, where we worked together and have worked closely together since. Time and experiences help us realize what we can contribute to others, and I try to lead with that and ways to forge brilliant collaborations as much as possible.   

DE: Ok, but also just for a more nuts-and-bolts question: what exactly do you say to the CEO of Pixar when you accost him in a parking lot or on the street? I imagine that, for most people bold enough to give that a go, they’d end up with a selfie, not years of friendship and collaboration. I don’t want to sound like I’m trying to deconstruct the art of human connection into an algorithm here, but please give me an exact script for talking to other humanoid lifeforms…kidding, sort of. But what did you say to Ed when you first approached him? 

PS: Ed is probably the most down-to-earth and approachable CEO I have ever met. If people reading this met him without knowing he was the founder of Pixar, you would think he’s a very kind (and brilliant!) uncle. 

When it comes to these matters, I listen to my intuition and heart. Had I not met Ed, my life wouldn’t be the same today. He’s one of my favorite people ever, and surely one of the most rewarding and richest relationships in my life. 

DE: I want to note that you don’t only accost people you admire. There’s a part in the book where, in a crowd, you recognize and approach the former CEO of Lehman Brothers a few years after the company went bankrupt at the start of the Great Recession. And this is an unusual scene. You introduce yourself, and after some pleasantries you ask if he has any lessons to share from the financial crisis. And his response is that nobody has learned anything, and he seems to view himself as a victim in all this. When you ask him what he can do to help with some of society’s pressing problems, he complains that he can’t get anything done anymore. It sounds like it was a fairly weird interaction. So, first: do you constantly approach strangers in public to chat? And second: what did you take away from that interaction with the ex-Lehman CEO? 

PS: Seeing Dick Fuld walking right toward me at that event for entrepreneurs was startling. I can still remember the moment I saw him, as surprise turned to excitement. It felt a bit like what I imagine it would be like seeing a wild animal on a safari. I blurted out, “Dick!” I can’t tell you why. It was a very unusual moment and scene in the movie of life. But maybe that’s what it boils down to. Life can be like a constantly unfolding movie, if we let it. When we start out after college, we are the main character in the movie, and the rest of the world revolves around us. As we mature, we realize that life is a lot more interesting when we learn what’s going on for the other characters around us, and empathize with their points of view. 

At that moment, I was really curious to get inside Fuld’s head, perhaps because he is such a caricature of a classic villain. But what interested me more was to search for potential nuance in his heart and story. America is a very redemptive society, particularly for those who are willing to admit their mistakes and evidence rehabilitation. Fuld wasn’t there, but it was still a unique scene in the movie of life, and I’ve come to believe that sitting in the audience of the whole movie of life is the best place to be…Can you tell I’m easily entertained? 

DE: Now, to conclude this chat, I just want to say that I think one of your superpowers is that you’re always hunting for other people’s superpowers. I’ve noticed you’ve done that to me. You read my work before we ever connected, and when we talked, you told me what you think my superpower is. And I was like, “Huh. Yeah maybe I should try to use that more.” And I think that’s part of what helps you energize people: you’re probing for what they’re good at and suggesting uses for it and making connections to other people based on it. 

A few months ago, I was talking to Ed Hoffman, the first chief knowledge officer at NASA. He now consults with organizations, and he told me he’ll do sort of a listening tour where he asks people: “What are you good at that we aren’t using?” I love that idea. And I think that ethos is a core part of your approach. What do you think?

PS: I’ve never participated in such a probing, thoughtful conversation, and that’s evidence of one of your superpowers. You keep searching for deeper levels of insight and truth, whether you’re reading Shakespeare, a Bob Dylan lyric, or a hip-hop lyric. You’re searching for patterns, and then when you see similarities in prose, you surface the reference. I know a lot of authors, and you’re the only person who does this, and you do it exceptionally well. 

It’s very hard for any of us to see our own talents and superpowers. We’re dependent upon feedback, especially from others who can see us well. Hoffman’s question is interesting. Beth Comstock, the former vice chair for innovation at GE, used to ask everyone: what are you seeing that’s interesting right now? I do think a lot about the superpowers of others, because when we can combine those as part of a larger vision or mission, that’s when the most incredible things can happen. 

I’ll leave you with one of the most important things I have learned from Ed. He worked with Steve Jobs for 26 years, and Ed’s view is that Jobs’s journey was like the hero’s journey. He started out as intolerable at times, but on the return journey, he learned how to become a much better collaborator. Ed credits the role of [Jobs’s wife] Laurene [Powell Jobs] in Steve’s maturation, and what’s striking is how many world class collaborators Jobs was able to work with effectively for many years – from Ed and John Lasseter at Pixar, to Tim Cook, Jony Ive, Scott Forstall, and lots of others at Apple. Everyone was in just the right role for their superpowers. 

They built the dream team of dream teams and put a dent in the universe…One of the other interesting things I learned, both from Ed and Bill Campbell, who was a friend and coach to Jobs, is that they loved each other.

Thanks for reading. And thanks to Peter for taking time to chat; Black Sheep just came out earlier this month.

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Until next time…

David